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That's true in the same way that double taxation is a concern when setting up a corporation. It kind of is, but it's really not. Due to downvotes, I guess I b

That's true in the same way that double taxation is a concern when setting up a corporation. It kind of is, but it's really not. Due to downvotes, I guess I better explain what I mean: Basically, EC2 provides instances where "if you restart your server you lose your data". You don't use those when that would be a problem for you, you use EBS backed instances which do not have this problem. Or you do it some other way. Point being, this is technically true but it's not really a problem in practice. The double taxation reference refers to it being a somewhat common misconception among people that have taken a business class before that US corporations are "double taxed". IE, corporate profits are taxed, then your personal income is taxed. This is technically true but does not actually matter because you pay yourself a salary (which is taxed as income), but this is deducted as an expense from corporate income (thus not double taxed). Point being--it's the same FUD.

ddorian43 13y ago
what about the none-bytes-free bandwidth ?
jcampbell1 13y ago
I don't get the analogy. With EC2 you either lose your data when rebooting, or you have to use network storage (iSCSI) which has advantages and disadvantages. BTW, when I invest in a corporation, I do get double taxed. The profits are taxed at the highest possible income tax rate, then I pay 15% tax on the distribution of profits. Of course if I work for that corporation, I opt to take the "profits" as a bonus. I pay all the taxes in that case, but at least there isn't double taxation.
- bmelton 13y ago
  But there are a myriad of scenarios where booting to a AWS image, effectively a CD, is preferred. Having a non-writable filesystem is cool, where that non-writability allows for the saving of temp files and such, but if it were ever compromised, I would just reboot it, and it's exactly how it used to be. Even smarter, I would boot up another clean instance and take that one down, then remap the elastic IP to cut over. For data that must be stored, I can use a EBS, or a database instance. Like the grand-parent said, you pick what makes sense. Saying that ephemeral storage is a bad thing would be true if that were all they offered, but it isn't, and it ephemeral images are sometimes preferred.
  - singingcheese 13y ago
    A reboot doesn't cause you to lose data on your ephemeral storage. I think you mean "stopping" an instance and then "starting" it again (on another host), not rebooting it.
    - bmelton 13y ago
      You are correct, that is what I meant, but I've taken to calling it 'rebooting' because all the intro-to-EC2 stuff I've seen listed their "how to reboot the instance" instructions as stopping and starting it, so I figured it's the appropriate vernacular, however incorrect it might otherwise be.
- aluskuiuc 13y ago
  I'll pick this comment out of the many to reply to rather than spamming - you do not lose your data when you reboot an EC2 instance. Local ephemeral stores are retained unless you terminate or 'stop' your instance - but a reboot is just fine.
  - zibit 13y ago
    "Local ephemeral stores are retained unless you terminate your instance" That sentence makes no sense to people with no AWS experience. But if you give someone with Linux experience secure shell access to a DigitalOcean server they can hit the ground running.
    - singingcheese 13y ago
      If you shut down your server you lose the data that was stored on the local drives, no different to DO. If you shut down your droplet on DO you lose the data stored on the local drives (in fact DO now scrubs the disks on shutdown after a recent security screw-up). The only difference is that most folk on AWS use EBS storage (something which DO still doesn't offer) which allows you to have drives which can continue to exist after your server is no more and allows you to attach more storage without getting a bigger server. It's not rocket science: instance = virtual server ("droplet" in DO speak) terminate = shut down ephemeral store = local disk An EC2 instance is just a virtual server so anyone who knows Linux, Windows, BSD or even Solaris can "hit the ground running" there too.
      - zibit 13y ago
        When you say shutdown are talking about issuing commands from the command line like 'shutdown now' or 'reboot'? Because with Digital Ocean you DO NOT lose your data when you issue those commands. I know from experience.
        fm2612 13y ago
        Terminate in EC2 is basically the same as the Destroy call of DO. In both cases you will destroy the data stored locally. Rebooting an EC2 instance will not result in data loss, same as DO.
oijaf888 13y ago
Double taxation isn't related to the salary you get paid but the dividends that a corporation pays out. A corporation pays taxes on income then when it pays it out as dividends you pay taxes on it again, hence double taxation. As far as I'm aware you are unable to deduct dividend payments from corporate income for the purposes of taxation. So no, its not FUD in that case at all.
- dave_sullivan 13y ago
  Alright, I'll bite. You're right. But you're not going to avoid the stock market (where you might get paid in dividends) because you want to avoid double taxation. However, when forming a company for the first time, you'll hear double taxation cited as a reason you might not want to form a corporation. This is stupid because you're not going to pay yourself in dividends. Of course there are many reasons you might choose one business form over another -- I'm just saying that double taxation really isn't one of them. Likewise, if you are deciding between digital ocean and AWS -- there are many reasons why you might want to go with one over the other. One of the reasons is not because you lose all your data when you restart a machine on AWS. I mean, look, I'm considering giving DO a shot for various reasons, but AWS losing my data because of some oversight in their service that DO has fundamentally engineered around isn't one of them. In both cases, I'm not saying one is better than the other -- all i'm saying is some distinctions are subtly stupid to the point of being manipulative. As in FUD. That's my full thought process on this matter, I don't think I've got anything past that, haha
  - AznHisoka 13y ago
    Hmm.. question for u. Say I start a corporation, with just me and another partner, and I need to pay myself... So the revenue earned by the company that's paid to me. that's taxed once by the company. And then again by me as salary. No? Isn't that how it works?
    - logjammer 13y ago
      No, that is not how it works. Your salary is an expense for the company, paid before any corporate tax is paid, and thus reduces corporate tax. A company that has $10MM in revenue, and $10MM in salary expense will pay zero corporate income tax.

ddorian43 13y ago

what about the none-bytes-free bandwidth ?

jcampbell1 13y ago

I don't get the analogy. With EC2 you either lose your data when rebooting, or you have to use network storage (iSCSI) which has advantages and disadvantages. BTW, when I invest in a corporation, I do get double taxed. The profits are taxed at the highest possible income tax rate, then I pay 15% tax on the distribution of profits. Of course if I work for that corporation, I opt to take the "profits" as a bonus. I pay all the taxes in that case, but at least there isn't double taxation.

bmelton 13y ago
But there are a myriad of scenarios where booting to a AWS image, effectively a CD, is preferred. Having a non-writable filesystem is cool, where that non-writability allows for the saving of temp files and such, but if it were ever compromised, I would just reboot it, and it's exactly how it used to be. Even smarter, I would boot up another clean instance and take that one down, then remap the elastic IP to cut over. For data that must be stored, I can use a EBS, or a database instance. Like the grand-parent said, you pick what makes sense. Saying that ephemeral storage is a bad thing would be true if that were all they offered, but it isn't, and it ephemeral images are sometimes preferred.
- singingcheese 13y ago
  A reboot doesn't cause you to lose data on your ephemeral storage. I think you mean "stopping" an instance and then "starting" it again (on another host), not rebooting it.
  - bmelton 13y ago
    You are correct, that is what I meant, but I've taken to calling it 'rebooting' because all the intro-to-EC2 stuff I've seen listed their "how to reboot the instance" instructions as stopping and starting it, so I figured it's the appropriate vernacular, however incorrect it might otherwise be.
aluskuiuc 13y ago
I'll pick this comment out of the many to reply to rather than spamming - you do not lose your data when you reboot an EC2 instance. Local ephemeral stores are retained unless you terminate or 'stop' your instance - but a reboot is just fine.
- zibit 13y ago
  "Local ephemeral stores are retained unless you terminate your instance" That sentence makes no sense to people with no AWS experience. But if you give someone with Linux experience secure shell access to a DigitalOcean server they can hit the ground running.
  - singingcheese 13y ago
    If you shut down your server you lose the data that was stored on the local drives, no different to DO. If you shut down your droplet on DO you lose the data stored on the local drives (in fact DO now scrubs the disks on shutdown after a recent security screw-up). The only difference is that most folk on AWS use EBS storage (something which DO still doesn't offer) which allows you to have drives which can continue to exist after your server is no more and allows you to attach more storage without getting a bigger server. It's not rocket science: instance = virtual server ("droplet" in DO speak) terminate = shut down ephemeral store = local disk An EC2 instance is just a virtual server so anyone who knows Linux, Windows, BSD or even Solaris can "hit the ground running" there too.
    - zibit 13y ago
      When you say shutdown are talking about issuing commands from the command line like 'shutdown now' or 'reboot'? Because with Digital Ocean you DO NOT lose your data when you issue those commands. I know from experience.
      - fm2612 13y ago
        Terminate in EC2 is basically the same as the Destroy call of DO. In both cases you will destroy the data stored locally. Rebooting an EC2 instance will not result in data loss, same as DO.

oijaf888 13y ago

Double taxation isn't related to the salary you get paid but the dividends that a corporation pays out. A corporation pays taxes on income then when it pays it out as dividends you pay taxes on it again, hence double taxation. As far as I'm aware you are unable to deduct dividend payments from corporate income for the purposes of taxation. So no, its not FUD in that case at all.

dave_sullivan 13y ago
Alright, I'll bite. You're right. But you're not going to avoid the stock market (where you might get paid in dividends) because you want to avoid double taxation. However, when forming a company for the first time, you'll hear double taxation cited as a reason you might not want to form a corporation. This is stupid because you're not going to pay yourself in dividends. Of course there are many reasons you might choose one business form over another -- I'm just saying that double taxation really isn't one of them. Likewise, if you are deciding between digital ocean and AWS -- there are many reasons why you might want to go with one over the other. One of the reasons is not because you lose all your data when you restart a machine on AWS. I mean, look, I'm considering giving DO a shot for various reasons, but AWS losing my data because of some oversight in their service that DO has fundamentally engineered around isn't one of them. In both cases, I'm not saying one is better than the other -- all i'm saying is some distinctions are subtly stupid to the point of being manipulative. As in FUD. That's my full thought process on this matter, I don't think I've got anything past that, haha
- AznHisoka 13y ago
  Hmm.. question for u. Say I start a corporation, with just me and another partner, and I need to pay myself... So the revenue earned by the company that's paid to me. that's taxed once by the company. And then again by me as salary. No? Isn't that how it works?
  - logjammer 13y ago
    No, that is not how it works. Your salary is an expense for the company, paid before any corporate tax is paid, and thus reduces corporate tax. A company that has $10MM in revenue, and $10MM in salary expense will pay zero corporate income tax.