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The true value of this mentality isn't possible while in the current structure of our capitalistic systems.

by loceng 13y ago

asgard1024 13y ago
I absolutely agree. If we had a basic income, at least, I can imagine it working. But now there is just too many people working on creating artificial scarcity to keep most of the population in fear.
- loceng 13y ago
  I wonder what happens though then if everyone has say a basic income, with when competition does exist; This model is directly in competition with those who want to compete. Those who want to be competitive will gather ideas and try to execute on them better - very much like how the VC model really works; People desperate for money to make their idea happen flood to VCs and other investors sharing their ideas and even full business plans, giving a clear picture of the landscape ... meanwhile then those who are acting in a competitive way will be the ones who will benefit the most. So it comes down to a question of if we want to allow specific organizations to amass and control huge amounts of resources, and if so, what in return must they guarantee us - how must they benefit us, etc.. ingrained in this could be the idea of accountability and responsibility, and if they don't live up to defined expectations then they lose the powers we have allowed them to amass. If someone has proven they are highly capable of organizing and managing resources in a non-violent, sustainable, kind, and fair way - then I would want them to have access to whatever resources they need to continue this.
  - dethstar 13y ago
    Mhmm, does the competitive model really make the gathering and executing of ideas better? If that was true we would have thousands of ISPs, Office suites, etc. With way better technology and what not. But they are all looking for ways to lock out their competition instead of making a better product. So I'm not sure the competition is what pushes us towards.
jerf 13y ago
It's not just "capitalism"; it's hard to imagine any realistic system in which this works and doesn't leave you vulnerable to people who exploit your strategy. Even in straight-up Communism, the competitive people who were smart enough not to be fooled about party line on "equality" could get radically more than their peers. Everybody mouthed words about how that didn't happen, but it did, and everybody knows it. Historically speaking, there is some degree of success to be had in convincing others to adopt this position, though, so that others can exploit them. Capitalism is at least being honest, unlike the systems that lie to you about how you can adopt this strategy. I often think that a great deal of what people don't like about capitalism is precisely that it is generally being honest and not telling you glittering, appealing lies.
- loceng 13y ago
  I believe what you're talking about overall is game theory. Capitalism being "honest" isn't really a reasonable justification when a system inherently allows others to be dishonest without repercussions, accountability, responsibility, etc.. There are some very simple mechanisms that can be put in place which makes it more honest, or rather limits the damage of those being "dishonest" or who are best at figuring out how to excessively take advantage. I do believe capitalism likely needs to stay in place, it's a matter of how we govern the systems that needs to shift.
  - jerf 13y ago
    No, I'm not saying capitalism creates honest people... I'm saying the philosophy itself is being honest. Communism says once it gets into place, we're all just pulling for the common good and everybody gets equal ownership of everything. This is a lie. The system still "inherently allows others to be dishonest without repercussions, accountability, responsibility, etc.", and history can make a good case that it does so all the more so than a capitalistic system does. Capitalism tells you the truth; it's a rough world out there and you need to be able to find some way to compete. Much of the criticism (but not all!) of capitalism boils down to people shooting the messenger. It is a rough world out there and you do need to find some way to compete, but some people would rather hear from people singing about how if you just give them all the power, their philosophy will erase that from the world and you can just go to sleep peacefully and stop worrying. Unfortunately, this is also a lie, or at least that's what the history shows. Nor does this mean that we are somehow obligated to "maximize" brutality or something stupid. It means that by facing it squarely, we are better able to deal with it, and that's why the capitalistic countries of the world are far better places to be than the places that reject it. It may not be perfect, but by aligning oneself with the true nature of the world you end up producing enough excess wealth to be able to seriously engage in social programs. It's OK to wish it weren't this way... it's not so OK to think that if we just close our eyes and wish hard enough we can make the problem unexist. That leads to actions that leave you vulnerable and exposed. Facing the truth is part of the path to changing it; denial often just makes it far worse.
littke 13y ago
I believe this system can be used today, even though there are people out there who may abuse it if you do. But I think we're already seeing the fruits of this behavior, especially in this space.

The true value of this mentality isn't possible while in the current structure of our capitalistic systems.

by loceng 13y ago

The true value of this mentality isn't possible while in the current structure of our capitalistic systems.

I absolutely agree. If we had a basic income, at least, I can imagine it working. But now there is just too many people working on creating artificial scarcity to keep most of the population in fear.

loceng 13y ago
I wonder what happens though then if everyone has say a basic income, with when competition does exist; This model is directly in competition with those who want to compete. Those who want to be competitive will gather ideas and try to execute on them better - very much like how the VC model really works; People desperate for money to make their idea happen flood to VCs and other investors sharing their ideas and even full business plans, giving a clear picture of the landscape ... meanwhile then those who are acting in a competitive way will be the ones who will benefit the most. So it comes down to a question of if we want to allow specific organizations to amass and control huge amounts of resources, and if so, what in return must they guarantee us - how must they benefit us, etc.. ingrained in this could be the idea of accountability and responsibility, and if they don't live up to defined expectations then they lose the powers we have allowed them to amass. If someone has proven they are highly capable of organizing and managing resources in a non-violent, sustainable, kind, and fair way - then I would want them to have access to whatever resources they need to continue this.
- dethstar 13y ago
  Mhmm, does the competitive model really make the gathering and executing of ideas better? If that was true we would have thousands of ISPs, Office suites, etc. With way better technology and what not. But they are all looking for ways to lock out their competition instead of making a better product. So I'm not sure the competition is what pushes us towards.

jerf 13y ago

It's not just "capitalism"; it's hard to imagine any realistic system in which this works and doesn't leave you vulnerable to people who exploit your strategy. Even in straight-up Communism, the competitive people who were smart enough not to be fooled about party line on "equality" could get radically more than their peers. Everybody mouthed words about how that didn't happen, but it did, and everybody knows it. Historically speaking, there is some degree of success to be had in convincing others to adopt this position, though, so that others can exploit them. Capitalism is at least being honest, unlike the systems that lie to you about how you can adopt this strategy. I often think that a great deal of what people don't like about capitalism is precisely that it is generally being honest and not telling you glittering, appealing lies.

loceng 13y ago
I believe what you're talking about overall is game theory. Capitalism being "honest" isn't really a reasonable justification when a system inherently allows others to be dishonest without repercussions, accountability, responsibility, etc.. There are some very simple mechanisms that can be put in place which makes it more honest, or rather limits the damage of those being "dishonest" or who are best at figuring out how to excessively take advantage. I do believe capitalism likely needs to stay in place, it's a matter of how we govern the systems that needs to shift.
- jerf 13y ago
  No, I'm not saying capitalism creates honest people... I'm saying the philosophy itself is being honest. Communism says once it gets into place, we're all just pulling for the common good and everybody gets equal ownership of everything. This is a lie. The system still "inherently allows others to be dishonest without repercussions, accountability, responsibility, etc.", and history can make a good case that it does so all the more so than a capitalistic system does. Capitalism tells you the truth; it's a rough world out there and you need to be able to find some way to compete. Much of the criticism (but not all!) of capitalism boils down to people shooting the messenger. It is a rough world out there and you do need to find some way to compete, but some people would rather hear from people singing about how if you just give them all the power, their philosophy will erase that from the world and you can just go to sleep peacefully and stop worrying. Unfortunately, this is also a lie, or at least that's what the history shows. Nor does this mean that we are somehow obligated to "maximize" brutality or something stupid. It means that by facing it squarely, we are better able to deal with it, and that's why the capitalistic countries of the world are far better places to be than the places that reject it. It may not be perfect, but by aligning oneself with the true nature of the world you end up producing enough excess wealth to be able to seriously engage in social programs. It's OK to wish it weren't this way... it's not so OK to think that if we just close our eyes and wish hard enough we can make the problem unexist. That leads to actions that leave you vulnerable and exposed. Facing the truth is part of the path to changing it; denial often just makes it far worse.

littke 13y ago

I believe this system can be used today, even though there are people out there who may abuse it if you do. But I think we're already seeing the fruits of this behavior, especially in this space.