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> If a regulator with sufficient authority had audited MtGox, it would have been closed down a long time ago, and people wouldn't have lost remotely as much mon

> If a regulator with sufficient authority had audited MtGox, it would have been closed down a long time ago, and people wouldn't have lost remotely as much money. You state this as though it was the only option people had available for not losing money. > Without it, bitcoin users are at the mercy of a bunch of utter amateurs. This statement is simply untrue. Nothing stops people from exchanging BTC in person. Nothing stops people from exchanging small low risk volumes on exchanges at a time. Regulatory oversight is not necessary to manage risk - it just makes things easier (and FWIW, something I support). People who lost money on MtGox lost it because of decisions they made which they had 100% control over. There were viable alternatives open to them, they simply chose not to pursue those options. Every government with an opinion on Bitcoin thus far has made it abundantly clear that (1) Bitcoin is risky (2) if you stuff up, nobody will rescue you. If you decide to participate despite these warnings, that's your own free choice. If you are not aware of those warnings, you're putting your money into something you haven't adequately researched, and would likely be bound to lose your money either way.

mcv 13y ago
> Nothing stops people from exchanging BTC in person. Nothing stops people from exchanging small low risk volumes on exchanges at a time. Lack of technical knowledge and understanding stops most people from handling BTC safely. In order to manage risk, you need to understand the risk, and a lot of people just don't, and nobody is telling them or helping them in an accessible, understandable and reliable way. > People who lost money on MtGox lost it because of decisions they made which they had 100% control over. But that doesn't mean they understood them 100%. You make it sound like they intentionally threw money away. They didn't. They didn't expect this, didn't understand this was possible, not to mention likely. Had everybody known how MtGox operated, and had trustworthy experts explained what that meant, nobody would have put money in MtGox. No person on earth can afford to understand 100% of everything he deals with. Easy, safe, reliable interfaces are vital once you move from hunting and gathering to a more complex society.
- ryanjshaw 13y ago
  > In order to manage risk, you need to understand the risk, and a lot of people just don't Does that excuse them from responsibility for engaging in risky transactions? > You make it sound like they intentionally threw money away No, I'm simply advocating taking personal responsibility for one's decisions, and pointing out that safe Bitcoin use is entirely possible without regulatory oversight [1]. > They didn't expect this, didn't understand this was possible, not to mention likely MtGox and multiple exchanges have been hacked long prior to this event. That sets a reasonable expectation of what could happen in the near future. Again, if you don't do your homework you must expect to get burned. Bitcoin is an experiment. Just like any other experiment it can end in all sorts of ways, some good, some bad. You seem to believe that people should be protected from making mistakes all the time -- if that were the case we would never have invented the airplane, performed nuclear power (weapons) research, etc. We can't jump into F1 cars before learning how to drive and expect not to get hurt. Sometimes you have to make mistakes to make progress, particularly in a field that is completely new and unlike anything that has come before it; the people who cannot deal with the consequences of those mistakes should not be in the game until the consequences of mistake making is more suitable for them. Sure it sucks watching all those 15 year old kids become millionaires over night and you may be tempted to sell your house for Bitcoin, but that's life - don't be a fool. [1] Caveat: (1) unfortunately the operating systems we run today are not very secure, and this is one risk that is very difficult to mitigate until companies take OS security to e.g. a capabilities-based level where application confinement can be guaranteed (2) this is not to say that I think putting your money in it is a good idea today, just that fundamentally there's nothing stopping the situation from improving without regulators, even though - as I said previously - I support regulation similar to that applicable to similar financial services institutions
  - mcv 13y ago
    > No, I'm simply advocating taking personal responsibility for one's decisions, and pointing out that safe Bitcoin use is entirely possible without regulatory oversight [1]. I don't see how safe bitcoin use is possible for most people. Their own devices aren't secure, and online services cannot be trusted. What other option is there? > MtGox and multiple exchanges have been hacked long prior to this event. And yet this was totally non-publicized in the mainstream media. Everybody was all about how fantastic bitcoin was and how big MtGox was, and those articles were not followed by equally big articles about how MtGox was totally unsafe, and so were most other exchanges. Faced with that, it makes total sense that people think that MtGox is the place to be. > You seem to believe that people should be protected from making mistakes all the time No, but I do believe people should be informed. And the bitcoin community seems very adverse to that. > We can't jump into F1 cars before learning how to drive and expect not to get hurt. Which is why there's such a thing as a driver's license. People know they shouldn't jump into a car without one. The cars themselves also need to meet all sorts of strict rules, without expecting every driver to be able to take it apart, repair it and, and judge its reliability. There are professional experts for that. We need similar professionals in bitcoin, otherwise it's going to stay are the current amateur hobby level. > Sometimes you have to make mistakes to make progress, particularly in a field that is completely new and unlike anything that has come before it Sure, but bitcoin isn't that new. Both finance and programming are well established fields, yet bitcoin fans and entrepreneurs insist on ignoring all the lessons from those two fields, with these disastrous results.

mcv 13y ago

> Nothing stops people from exchanging BTC in person. Nothing stops people from exchanging small low risk volumes on exchanges at a time. Lack of technical knowledge and understanding stops most people from handling BTC safely. In order to manage risk, you need to understand the risk, and a lot of people just don't, and nobody is telling them or helping them in an accessible, understandable and reliable way. > People who lost money on MtGox lost it because of decisions they made which they had 100% control over. But that doesn't mean they understood them 100%. You make it sound like they intentionally threw money away. They didn't. They didn't expect this, didn't understand this was possible, not to mention likely. Had everybody known how MtGox operated, and had trustworthy experts explained what that meant, nobody would have put money in MtGox. No person on earth can afford to understand 100% of everything he deals with. Easy, safe, reliable interfaces are vital once you move from hunting and gathering to a more complex society.

ryanjshaw 13y ago
> In order to manage risk, you need to understand the risk, and a lot of people just don't Does that excuse them from responsibility for engaging in risky transactions? > You make it sound like they intentionally threw money away No, I'm simply advocating taking personal responsibility for one's decisions, and pointing out that safe Bitcoin use is entirely possible without regulatory oversight [1]. > They didn't expect this, didn't understand this was possible, not to mention likely MtGox and multiple exchanges have been hacked long prior to this event. That sets a reasonable expectation of what could happen in the near future. Again, if you don't do your homework you must expect to get burned. Bitcoin is an experiment. Just like any other experiment it can end in all sorts of ways, some good, some bad. You seem to believe that people should be protected from making mistakes all the time -- if that were the case we would never have invented the airplane, performed nuclear power (weapons) research, etc. We can't jump into F1 cars before learning how to drive and expect not to get hurt. Sometimes you have to make mistakes to make progress, particularly in a field that is completely new and unlike anything that has come before it; the people who cannot deal with the consequences of those mistakes should not be in the game until the consequences of mistake making is more suitable for them. Sure it sucks watching all those 15 year old kids become millionaires over night and you may be tempted to sell your house for Bitcoin, but that's life - don't be a fool. [1] Caveat: (1) unfortunately the operating systems we run today are not very secure, and this is one risk that is very difficult to mitigate until companies take OS security to e.g. a capabilities-based level where application confinement can be guaranteed (2) this is not to say that I think putting your money in it is a good idea today, just that fundamentally there's nothing stopping the situation from improving without regulators, even though - as I said previously - I support regulation similar to that applicable to similar financial services institutions
- mcv 13y ago
  > No, I'm simply advocating taking personal responsibility for one's decisions, and pointing out that safe Bitcoin use is entirely possible without regulatory oversight [1]. I don't see how safe bitcoin use is possible for most people. Their own devices aren't secure, and online services cannot be trusted. What other option is there? > MtGox and multiple exchanges have been hacked long prior to this event. And yet this was totally non-publicized in the mainstream media. Everybody was all about how fantastic bitcoin was and how big MtGox was, and those articles were not followed by equally big articles about how MtGox was totally unsafe, and so were most other exchanges. Faced with that, it makes total sense that people think that MtGox is the place to be. > You seem to believe that people should be protected from making mistakes all the time No, but I do believe people should be informed. And the bitcoin community seems very adverse to that. > We can't jump into F1 cars before learning how to drive and expect not to get hurt. Which is why there's such a thing as a driver's license. People know they shouldn't jump into a car without one. The cars themselves also need to meet all sorts of strict rules, without expecting every driver to be able to take it apart, repair it and, and judge its reliability. There are professional experts for that. We need similar professionals in bitcoin, otherwise it's going to stay are the current amateur hobby level. > Sometimes you have to make mistakes to make progress, particularly in a field that is completely new and unlike anything that has come before it Sure, but bitcoin isn't that new. Both finance and programming are well established fields, yet bitcoin fans and entrepreneurs insist on ignoring all the lessons from those two fields, with these disastrous results.