7 ms·

I've lost faith. I've lost every bitcoin I've ever had, either as a result of fraud, theft, government intervention and one slightly embarrassing technical snaf

I've lost faith. I've lost every bitcoin I've ever had, either as a result of fraud, theft, government intervention and one slightly embarrassing technical snafu. And now bitcoins are too expensive for me to consider it a fun experiment. I don't trust any of the players, and I don't believe any of the promises. Good luck to bitcoin, but I'm out for the time being.

rjbwork 13y ago
I don't mean to be patronizing, but I may come off that way: why have you not been holding the vast majority of your BTC in your own local and triply (or more) backed up wallet, and liquidating to USD/other fiat in small pieces when you need to? I don't get how people can lose their entire stash of coin to these types of things. I don't even own any BTC.
- sosborn 13y ago
  > liquidating to USD/other fiat in small pieces when you need to? Just a hunch, but the meteoric rise in value probably prevents most people from simply cashing out.
  - rjbwork 13y ago
    Why? Isn't the demand for the existing coins what drives the rise in value? Logically there should be demand for one's sale of the coins at that point right?
    - sosborn 13y ago
      What I mean is that when the value keeps going up there is psychological barrier to cashing out. The thought is that it will keep going up so if I cash out now I'm missing out.
- oelmekki 13y ago
  I have to agree with that, even if it's very hard and is on the edge of blaming the victim. I feel for people losing everything, but really, don't keep your stash at exchanges. Those are meant for trading, not as main account. To make a comparison with fiat money, would you throw your main bank account at trading ? Chances are you would have a main bank account and a secondary one for trading that would only contain money you're ok to lose. To push the metaphor further, would put your whole money at trade in an obscur online bank that was created just a few time ago ? The main strength of cryptocurrencies is that they are decentralized. You're supposed to have your stash on your main computer. Each time people try to use a centralized online wallet instead, shit happens. This sounds quite weird as it feels like keeping one's money under his bed, but really, it was how it was meant to work. Again, I feel for victims here, but please, be smart about it : recommend to anyone owning crytocurrencies to hold them on a local wallet, with backup for keys encrypted on a thumbdrive. Explain to them what happened to you.
  - mcv 13y ago
    > I have to agree with that, even if it's very hard and is on the edge of blaming the victim. I feel for people losing everything, but really, don't keep your stash at exchanges. The main reason that's unsafe, is because the exchanges themselves are unreliable amateur outfits. Keeping the wallet on your own decive sounds smart, until you realize that your own device isn't very secure either, and every bit as much an amateur environment as the worst exchanges. Your PC can be stolen, or compromised by trojans and viruses (and you can bet they'll be targeted if lots of money is stored there), and you can lose your money in a hardware crash. Backups help, but every backup is also a new way someone else might get access to your wallet. > To make a comparison with fiat money, would you throw your main bank account at trading ? Chances are you would have a main bank account and a secondary one for trading that would only contain money you're ok to lose. To push the metaphor further, would put your whole money at trade in an obscur online bank that was created just a few time ago ? No, the proper metaphor here is to have your money in a bank, or to have it at home in a pillow. Most people have their money in a bank, and well-regulated banks are pretty safe. (The recent banking crisis was due to lack of regulation allowing banks to take crazy risks.) What we need is well-regulated, safe bitcoin banks and exchanges.
- mcv 13y ago
  > why have you not been holding the vast majority of your BTC in your own local and triply (or more) backed up wallet My guess is: convenience. In practice, convenience often beats security, and it's very convenient to trust your bitcoins to an exchange that offers a nice interface to trade them with others or exchange them for money. Also: the vast, vast majority of people know nothing whatsoever about security. A currency that requires detailed security knowledge is only going to be used by security experts and fools. (Disclaimer: I have bitcoins and I'm not a security expert.)
  - oelmekki 13y ago
    I see your point, obviously, but well, we could also consider it would be more convenient to never lock house door and to let car keys ready to use in car :) There is indeed a huge problem with the sync thing in cryptos wallet apps. But there are apps that fix that by only downloading part of blockchain, like the dogecoin android wallet or electrum for bitcoin. This is what we should advocate, and stress that any online wallet is a risk of loss.
    - mcv 13y ago
      > it would be more convenient to never lock house door and to let car keys ready to use in car True, but those implications are easier to understand and manage for most people. They can open an unlocked door, so they understand that anyone can. And when they lose the key to their house, at least the house is still there.
- tomelders 13y ago
  I was. And i was backed up. The backup was mitigated by the embarrassing technical snafu that I mentioned, the other losses occurred when bitcoins were being held in escrow byt third parties. Those third parties were either shut down by the feds, hacked or the service owners plain just absconded with the funds. I wasn't a bitcoin millionaire, I only had a modest amount and I never bought in when they were super cheap, but that still added up to a sizeable chunk of cash. Bottom line, there's a lot of stuff that can go wrong, and there's no safety net when it does.

rjbwork 13y ago

I don't mean to be patronizing, but I may come off that way: why have you not been holding the vast majority of your BTC in your own local and triply (or more) backed up wallet, and liquidating to USD/other fiat in small pieces when you need to? I don't get how people can lose their entire stash of coin to these types of things. I don't even own any BTC.

sosborn 13y ago
> liquidating to USD/other fiat in small pieces when you need to? Just a hunch, but the meteoric rise in value probably prevents most people from simply cashing out.
- rjbwork 13y ago
  Why? Isn't the demand for the existing coins what drives the rise in value? Logically there should be demand for one's sale of the coins at that point right?
  - sosborn 13y ago
    What I mean is that when the value keeps going up there is psychological barrier to cashing out. The thought is that it will keep going up so if I cash out now I'm missing out.
oelmekki 13y ago
I have to agree with that, even if it's very hard and is on the edge of blaming the victim. I feel for people losing everything, but really, don't keep your stash at exchanges. Those are meant for trading, not as main account. To make a comparison with fiat money, would you throw your main bank account at trading ? Chances are you would have a main bank account and a secondary one for trading that would only contain money you're ok to lose. To push the metaphor further, would put your whole money at trade in an obscur online bank that was created just a few time ago ? The main strength of cryptocurrencies is that they are decentralized. You're supposed to have your stash on your main computer. Each time people try to use a centralized online wallet instead, shit happens. This sounds quite weird as it feels like keeping one's money under his bed, but really, it was how it was meant to work. Again, I feel for victims here, but please, be smart about it : recommend to anyone owning crytocurrencies to hold them on a local wallet, with backup for keys encrypted on a thumbdrive. Explain to them what happened to you.
- mcv 13y ago
  > I have to agree with that, even if it's very hard and is on the edge of blaming the victim. I feel for people losing everything, but really, don't keep your stash at exchanges. The main reason that's unsafe, is because the exchanges themselves are unreliable amateur outfits. Keeping the wallet on your own decive sounds smart, until you realize that your own device isn't very secure either, and every bit as much an amateur environment as the worst exchanges. Your PC can be stolen, or compromised by trojans and viruses (and you can bet they'll be targeted if lots of money is stored there), and you can lose your money in a hardware crash. Backups help, but every backup is also a new way someone else might get access to your wallet. > To make a comparison with fiat money, would you throw your main bank account at trading ? Chances are you would have a main bank account and a secondary one for trading that would only contain money you're ok to lose. To push the metaphor further, would put your whole money at trade in an obscur online bank that was created just a few time ago ? No, the proper metaphor here is to have your money in a bank, or to have it at home in a pillow. Most people have their money in a bank, and well-regulated banks are pretty safe. (The recent banking crisis was due to lack of regulation allowing banks to take crazy risks.) What we need is well-regulated, safe bitcoin banks and exchanges.
mcv 13y ago
> why have you not been holding the vast majority of your BTC in your own local and triply (or more) backed up wallet My guess is: convenience. In practice, convenience often beats security, and it's very convenient to trust your bitcoins to an exchange that offers a nice interface to trade them with others or exchange them for money. Also: the vast, vast majority of people know nothing whatsoever about security. A currency that requires detailed security knowledge is only going to be used by security experts and fools. (Disclaimer: I have bitcoins and I'm not a security expert.)
- oelmekki 13y ago
  I see your point, obviously, but well, we could also consider it would be more convenient to never lock house door and to let car keys ready to use in car :) There is indeed a huge problem with the sync thing in cryptos wallet apps. But there are apps that fix that by only downloading part of blockchain, like the dogecoin android wallet or electrum for bitcoin. This is what we should advocate, and stress that any online wallet is a risk of loss.
  - mcv 13y ago
    > it would be more convenient to never lock house door and to let car keys ready to use in car True, but those implications are easier to understand and manage for most people. They can open an unlocked door, so they understand that anyone can. And when they lose the key to their house, at least the house is still there.
tomelders 13y ago
I was. And i was backed up. The backup was mitigated by the embarrassing technical snafu that I mentioned, the other losses occurred when bitcoins were being held in escrow byt third parties. Those third parties were either shut down by the feds, hacked or the service owners plain just absconded with the funds. I wasn't a bitcoin millionaire, I only had a modest amount and I never bought in when they were super cheap, but that still added up to a sizeable chunk of cash. Bottom line, there's a lot of stuff that can go wrong, and there's no safety net when it does.