5 ms·

Dell UK is charging £16.25 to Install Firefox, Mozilla denied for any such Deal

36 points by rocky5 13y ago

vixen99 13y ago
What is the problem? Someone has to be paid for the time they spend on the installation. Bearing in mind it takes a minute or so max. for this job, hourly rates (or profits) at Dell must be mouth-watering.
- thejosh 13y ago
  Or you know, they just have an image and are trying to screw people over further.
- hartror 13y ago
  > Someone has to be paid for the time they spend on the installation. "Someone" being a script.
  - stinos 13y ago
    Not entirely. It's more likely some human intervention is needed somewhere in the process to select the image/install containing Firefox. Although it's likely something like a checkbox, or maybe fysically selecting another disk - 16.25 seems a bit steep for that, yes.
    - friendzis 13y ago
      It actually does require a chackbox - customer checks it when ordering ;) Booting computer and manually installing OS/updates requires quite a bunch of [man] hours (given that they ship a bit more than few PCs a day when distributing a batch) so it is safe to assume they do not do that, but instead clone disks. it is most likely that master is kept up to date by a script.
  - pizza234 13y ago
    And a script is not written (and not necessarily executed) by itself. It could be argued that the price is not fair, but it's still an option; it's common practice to add such options, in this price range, when purchasing computers online.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    somebody needs to write the script, maintain and debug it, handle customer questions related to the option, ... The fact that we can automate stuff doesn't make it free. Also, as any good consultant will tell you, the price you can charge your customer is not dependent on how much work something is for you but rather how much value the customer gains. Installing FF on a computer takes me like 15 minutes if I include everything - from asking the password, installing, migrating any bookmarks, cleaning the download etc. That amounts to an hourly rate of about 60 GBP, a reasonable price if you ask me.
- eCa 13y ago
  The problem is Mozilla's trademark policy [1]: "If you are using the Mozilla Mark(s) for the unaltered binaries you are distributing, you may not charge for that product. By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution [...] may not be [...] tied to purchasing a service" IANAL, but Dell is free to charge for the installation, but then they need to call it the Arctic Bear Browser. [1]: http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/policy/ http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/policy/
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    They're not charging to "distribute" firefox as a product in this instance, they are simply charging for the service/time to install it so I don't think this applies, it wouldn't be any different from geek squad etc charging to install firefox on a PC (IANAL).
    - markild 13y ago
      That sounds like semantics. Couldn't you say the same for any service where you _actually_ distribute it as well? "I'm not distributing it, I'm simple charging for the service of easy installation". (I'm also not AL, though...)
      - peterpostle 13y ago
        I've never understood the complaint that something is "just semantics", or "you're arguing semantics". If someone can't argue based on the meaning of the words in a piece of text, what else can they argue about? The grammar? The spelling? Surely we _only_ want arguments based on semantics!
        MatthewWilkes 13y ago
        The meaning of the sentence as a whole. "Just semantics" is used when you hinge your argument on the subtleties of meaning of one word.
        13y ago
- cbtacy 13y ago
  The problem is the law. It's worth learning about.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
anigbrowl 13y ago
Please read the HN guidelines and submit the original source. This blog is written by someone who is not even fluent in English.
- bausson 13y ago
  For the 'not fluent' part, you are being harsh (and kind of rude). Not everybody can be fluent on Californian tech-community english. The post is in english, easy to understand and there is no ambiguity. Yes, post from foreigner for who english is not their first language can have mistakes, but tolerance and constructive criticism is the way. Sorry for the rant, your point about the "original source" still stand. Even more in this case where the original source is a major newspaper, and supposedly more trustworthy.
  - onuryavuz 13y ago
    I could not agree more.
spiznnx 13y ago
So... I can pay more so I can check a box on Dell's site now instead of on Ninite's site later?
anon1385 13y ago
I can see why people might choose to pick this option when ordering a computer for a less computer savvy friend or relative. Finding and downloading Firefox safely is not trivial if you aren't very tech literate. I just did a search for "firefox" on Google a few moments ago and these are the top 'results': http://i.imgur.com/FZDn4rB.png http://i.imgur.com/FZDn4rB.png Obviously most HN users will notice that those ads don't point to the official Mozilla site, but to dodgy third party sites where the software is bundled with spyware and toolbars. It's all well and good for Mozilla to be questioning Dell over charging for this, but perhaps they should also spend some time trying to make it so that users can find Firefox safely from the biggest search engine in the world. Mozilla have plenty of experience at public relations. When they want to they can get their press releases and stories in just about every tech news sites in the world (this story being an apparent example of that, this is the second submission to HN because it is being so widely reported). If Google are refusing to sort out the problem[1] then Mozilla need to put up some fight and get the public on their side. Put together stories with screenshots and explain the security and privacy risks of the spyware and rogue browser extensions that those sites bundle. [1] which seems to be the situation; I've been noticing these malware ads for the last year or so (and they've probably been around a lot longer) and apparently repeated complains have been raised
- daleharvey 13y ago
  I expect people do raise the issue with malware ads with Google, but as stated its a Google problem and not much Mozilla can do about it. Why in the hell would mozilla be pushing this as PR?
  - anon1385 13y ago
    >its a Google problem and not much Mozilla can do about it. What they can do about it is complain loudly and publicly to try and force Google to stop their shitty behaviour. The same way they engaged in PR campaigns about Firefox not being allowed on iOS or H264 requiring patent licences, or dozens of other topics. >Why in the hell would mozilla be pushing this as PR? Because that seems to be the only solution left open to them to try and stop millions of users of their software being infected with malware. Are you saying that Mozilla should only talk to the media when it is about ideological political things like software patents, and not about real world threats to their users?
alkonaut 13y ago
I don't see the point, they are charging to install software, is that upsetting? Is it the fact that it is free software they are charging for that is upsetting? I can't see the standpoint of mozilla either, surely you can't be required to have permission to use a "brand name" just because you mention that you can install some software for a fee? EDIT: I did read mozillas terms, but still think it makes no sense. If I set up a store selling computers, surely I can, without permission of software manufacturers, allow customers a choice of software and offer to purchase a license & preinstall the software for the customer?
- CaptainZapp 13y ago
  The point is that they're monetizing Mozilla property by using their trademarks and their name recognition without permission. If I set up a store selling computers, surely I can, without permission of software manufacturers, allow customers a choice of software and offer to purchase a license & preinstall the software for the customer? Not if you use their trademarks to push your products and services.
  - alkonaut 13y ago
    Is the issue that there is a cost directly attributed to the trademarked software? If Dell lets users choose from a list of products to preinstall without cost would that then make it acceptable? What if the system has a fixed fee for build/setup? What if that fee is dependent on the number of different products chosen? At what point are they really "charging" for trademarked software? I can see how it is a bad thing for Mozilla if dell charges and uses their trademark, but shouldn't it be easy to circumvent by just moving the charges around on the order page?
    - CaptainZapp 13y ago
      It would be extremely easy to circumvent. Sell it as the Dell Software Power Bundle for 50 quid, or so. My take of the problem that there's a direct cost involved as soon as you add Firefox to your order and that's clearly against Mozilla's guidelines.
bananas 13y ago
Not particularly bothered about that. I charge a minimum of £30+VAT to do exactly the same if someone asks me.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - gambiting 13y ago
    I assume you consider charging for your own time "scamming" then?
  - bananas 13y ago
    Edit: parent poster suggested I should join Dell for scamming but the cowardly sod deleted his/her post to preserve karma decay No that's my minimum charge for 30 minutes of time. For that you get 30 minutes of my attention, a VAT invoice and warrantied work. It's a bargain. It's up to you to get value for money out of that time. If you want Firefox installed, that's up to you but I'm not going to turn down the work.
omgmog 13y ago
A couple of thoughts: 1 - Windows comes with a 'Browser Choice' icon on the desktop out of the box, it can't be that difficult to install Firefox, even if you're a novice user. 2 - I doubt that they have a single person going through and running the Firefox installer each time somebody checks that box. It's more likely that they use a different image for the computer, one with Firefox preinstalled. 3 - I'd be dubious to accept a preinstalled version of a browser. Let alone from Dell. The first thing I'd do with a new computer from an OEM is remove all of the preinstalled crap. Who is this geared towards? 4 - I feel like I'm missing a trick here. £16.25 for one version of Firefox!? I should get on to Apple and see about bundling my "Install all Firefoxes" shell script, and charge per version installed from there... £455 for every new Mac would be nice! https://github.com/omgmog/install-all-firefox https://github.com/omgmog/install-all-firefox
- alkonaut 13y ago
  1. It can be surprisingly hard to install free software without getting crapware bundled installers. Look at java... 2. If only 1 order of 1000 has the option checked, then that order alone would have to cover the cost of setting up that image. Automation isn't free.
yhlasx 13y ago
I don't see anything wrong with this. If the option is selected, probably someone at the shipping out location (or retail location) manually will install firefox, or windows image with firefox on it. It is perfectly fine. Even if automated, automation is not free. Are they overcharging? Probably. I disagree that it does not follow mozilla's terms, they are selling the service, as stated, not the browser.

36 points by rocky5 13y ago

What is the problem? Someone has to be paid for the time they spend on the installation. Bearing in mind it takes a minute or so max. for this job, hourly rates (or profits) at Dell must be mouth-watering.

thejosh 13y ago
Or you know, they just have an image and are trying to screw people over further.
hartror 13y ago
> Someone has to be paid for the time they spend on the installation. "Someone" being a script.
- stinos 13y ago
  Not entirely. It's more likely some human intervention is needed somewhere in the process to select the image/install containing Firefox. Although it's likely something like a checkbox, or maybe fysically selecting another disk - 16.25 seems a bit steep for that, yes.
  - friendzis 13y ago
    It actually does require a chackbox - customer checks it when ordering ;) Booting computer and manually installing OS/updates requires quite a bunch of [man] hours (given that they ship a bit more than few PCs a day when distributing a batch) so it is safe to assume they do not do that, but instead clone disks. it is most likely that master is kept up to date by a script.
- pizza234 13y ago
  And a script is not written (and not necessarily executed) by itself. It could be argued that the price is not fair, but it's still an option; it's common practice to add such options, in this price range, when purchasing computers online.
- Xylakant 13y ago
  somebody needs to write the script, maintain and debug it, handle customer questions related to the option, ... The fact that we can automate stuff doesn't make it free. Also, as any good consultant will tell you, the price you can charge your customer is not dependent on how much work something is for you but rather how much value the customer gains. Installing FF on a computer takes me like 15 minutes if I include everything - from asking the password, installing, migrating any bookmarks, cleaning the download etc. That amounts to an hourly rate of about 60 GBP, a reasonable price if you ask me.
eCa 13y ago
The problem is Mozilla's trademark policy [1]: "If you are using the Mozilla Mark(s) for the unaltered binaries you are distributing, you may not charge for that product. By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution [...] may not be [...] tied to purchasing a service" IANAL, but Dell is free to charge for the installation, but then they need to call it the Arctic Bear Browser. [1]: http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/policy/ http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/policy/
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  They're not charging to "distribute" firefox as a product in this instance, they are simply charging for the service/time to install it so I don't think this applies, it wouldn't be any different from geek squad etc charging to install firefox on a PC (IANAL).
  - markild 13y ago
    That sounds like semantics. Couldn't you say the same for any service where you _actually_ distribute it as well? "I'm not distributing it, I'm simple charging for the service of easy installation". (I'm also not AL, though...)
    - peterpostle 13y ago
      I've never understood the complaint that something is "just semantics", or "you're arguing semantics". If someone can't argue based on the meaning of the words in a piece of text, what else can they argue about? The grammar? The spelling? Surely we _only_ want arguments based on semantics!
      - MatthewWilkes 13y ago
        The meaning of the sentence as a whole. "Just semantics" is used when you hinge your argument on the subtleties of meaning of one word.
      - 13y ago
cbtacy 13y ago
The problem is the law. It's worth learning about.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

anigbrowl 13y ago

Please read the HN guidelines and submit the original source. This blog is written by someone who is not even fluent in English.

bausson 13y ago
For the 'not fluent' part, you are being harsh (and kind of rude). Not everybody can be fluent on Californian tech-community english. The post is in english, easy to understand and there is no ambiguity. Yes, post from foreigner for who english is not their first language can have mistakes, but tolerance and constructive criticism is the way. Sorry for the rant, your point about the "original source" still stand. Even more in this case where the original source is a major newspaper, and supposedly more trustworthy.
- onuryavuz 13y ago
  I could not agree more.

spiznnx 13y ago

So... I can pay more so I can check a box on Dell's site now instead of on Ninite's site later?

anon1385 13y ago

I can see why people might choose to pick this option when ordering a computer for a less computer savvy friend or relative. Finding and downloading Firefox safely is not trivial if you aren't very tech literate. I just did a search for "firefox" on Google a few moments ago and these are the top 'results': http://i.imgur.com/FZDn4rB.png http://i.imgur.com/FZDn4rB.png Obviously most HN users will notice that those ads don't point to the official Mozilla site, but to dodgy third party sites where the software is bundled with spyware and toolbars. It's all well and good for Mozilla to be questioning Dell over charging for this, but perhaps they should also spend some time trying to make it so that users can find Firefox safely from the biggest search engine in the world. Mozilla have plenty of experience at public relations. When they want to they can get their press releases and stories in just about every tech news sites in the world (this story being an apparent example of that, this is the second submission to HN because it is being so widely reported). If Google are refusing to sort out the problem[1] then Mozilla need to put up some fight and get the public on their side. Put together stories with screenshots and explain the security and privacy risks of the spyware and rogue browser extensions that those sites bundle. [1] which seems to be the situation; I've been noticing these malware ads for the last year or so (and they've probably been around a lot longer) and apparently repeated complains have been raised

daleharvey 13y ago
I expect people do raise the issue with malware ads with Google, but as stated its a Google problem and not much Mozilla can do about it. Why in the hell would mozilla be pushing this as PR?
- anon1385 13y ago
  >its a Google problem and not much Mozilla can do about it. What they can do about it is complain loudly and publicly to try and force Google to stop their shitty behaviour. The same way they engaged in PR campaigns about Firefox not being allowed on iOS or H264 requiring patent licences, or dozens of other topics. >Why in the hell would mozilla be pushing this as PR? Because that seems to be the only solution left open to them to try and stop millions of users of their software being infected with malware. Are you saying that Mozilla should only talk to the media when it is about ideological political things like software patents, and not about real world threats to their users?

alkonaut 13y ago

I don't see the point, they are charging to install software, is that upsetting? Is it the fact that it is free software they are charging for that is upsetting? I can't see the standpoint of mozilla either, surely you can't be required to have permission to use a "brand name" just because you mention that you can install some software for a fee? EDIT: I did read mozillas terms, but still think it makes no sense. If I set up a store selling computers, surely I can, without permission of software manufacturers, allow customers a choice of software and offer to purchase a license & preinstall the software for the customer?

CaptainZapp 13y ago
The point is that they're monetizing Mozilla property by using their trademarks and their name recognition without permission. If I set up a store selling computers, surely I can, without permission of software manufacturers, allow customers a choice of software and offer to purchase a license & preinstall the software for the customer? Not if you use their trademarks to push your products and services.
- alkonaut 13y ago
  Is the issue that there is a cost directly attributed to the trademarked software? If Dell lets users choose from a list of products to preinstall without cost would that then make it acceptable? What if the system has a fixed fee for build/setup? What if that fee is dependent on the number of different products chosen? At what point are they really "charging" for trademarked software? I can see how it is a bad thing for Mozilla if dell charges and uses their trademark, but shouldn't it be easy to circumvent by just moving the charges around on the order page?
  - CaptainZapp 13y ago
    It would be extremely easy to circumvent. Sell it as the Dell Software Power Bundle for 50 quid, or so. My take of the problem that there's a direct cost involved as soon as you add Firefox to your order and that's clearly against Mozilla's guidelines.

bananas 13y ago

Not particularly bothered about that. I charge a minimum of £30+VAT to do exactly the same if someone asks me.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- gambiting 13y ago
  I assume you consider charging for your own time "scamming" then?
- bananas 13y ago
  Edit: parent poster suggested I should join Dell for scamming but the cowardly sod deleted his/her post to preserve karma decay No that's my minimum charge for 30 minutes of time. For that you get 30 minutes of my attention, a VAT invoice and warrantied work. It's a bargain. It's up to you to get value for money out of that time. If you want Firefox installed, that's up to you but I'm not going to turn down the work.

omgmog 13y ago

A couple of thoughts: 1 - Windows comes with a 'Browser Choice' icon on the desktop out of the box, it can't be that difficult to install Firefox, even if you're a novice user. 2 - I doubt that they have a single person going through and running the Firefox installer each time somebody checks that box. It's more likely that they use a different image for the computer, one with Firefox preinstalled. 3 - I'd be dubious to accept a preinstalled version of a browser. Let alone from Dell. The first thing I'd do with a new computer from an OEM is remove all of the preinstalled crap. Who is this geared towards? 4 - I feel like I'm missing a trick here. £16.25 for one version of Firefox!? I should get on to Apple and see about bundling my "Install all Firefoxes" shell script, and charge per version installed from there... £455 for every new Mac would be nice! https://github.com/omgmog/install-all-firefox https://github.com/omgmog/install-all-firefox

alkonaut 13y ago
1. It can be surprisingly hard to install free software without getting crapware bundled installers. Look at java... 2. If only 1 order of 1000 has the option checked, then that order alone would have to cover the cost of setting up that image. Automation isn't free.

yhlasx 13y ago

I don't see anything wrong with this. If the option is selected, probably someone at the shipping out location (or retail location) manually will install firefox, or windows image with firefox on it. It is perfectly fine. Even if automated, automation is not free. Are they overcharging? Probably. I disagree that it does not follow mozilla's terms, they are selling the service, as stated, not the browser.