5 ms·

excellent, I've seen the opposite. Looks like our completely anecdotal observations cancel out :)

agumonkey 13y ago
Have you wrote about their issue somewhere else in details ? I'm on the same side as the parent comment[1] and I really wish to read and ~understand what I'm missing[2]. [1] I'm natively wired to run toward very dense 'interfaces' (ui, syntax) [2] Honest open question, don't wanna 'argue'.
briandear 13y ago
Is HAML really that hard? It seems pretty damned elementary to me. The hardest part is simply being sure you're using soft tabs. So called "front-end engineers" who can't understand haml after 3 minutes have no business calling themselves "front-end engineers"
- trustfundbaby 13y ago
  Nope, but whats wrong with html or something that resembles it closely enough without the whitespace active stuff and extra syntax. I'll give you the answer ... nothing. Haml feels like just an unnecessary abstraction on top of something (html) that was just fine to begin with. But a lot of engineers seem to like it, so I think its great for those people. > So called "front-end engineers" who can't understand haml after 3 minutes have no business calling themselves "front-end engineers" Gotta love the arrogance of the remark :) Remember that there are tons of people that aren't classically trained "engineers" that have to work on apps around the world, lets spare a thought for them ;) More seriously, I don't think the argument is them understanding haml. The problem is the learning curve. Its not that steep but having to look up how to do stuff that you could just type right away from memory in plain html every 5 minutes, slows you down, and people want to move quickly. Theres also the fact that when haml breaks you get a Rails error vs the way html breaks which is that the display just looks all wonky. Lets not underestimate that. > Is HAML really that hard? Again, what are all the objective "benefits" of haml that necessitate having to learn this new abstraction? I can tell you why I use Rails over Cakephp, but what is the problem that haml is trying to solve exactly?
  - slantyyz 13y ago
    >> what is the problem that haml is trying to solve exactly Speaking only from personal experience (and I'm talking about my own bad habits with HTML), I have had plenty of bugs related to mismatched open and close tags in heavily nested HTML code, which would result in time consuming debugging. I've all but eliminated these types of issues by using Haml. I no longer have to worry about accidentally deleting the wrong close tag when de-nesting a block of markup. Is it a cure-all for everyone? Not at all. But for some people, it's a godsend.
- notahacker 13y ago
  Learning HAML is elementary. Writing HAML consistently well enough to avoid triggering unnecessary compiler errors due to minor indentation issues that simply wouldn't affect output if you were writing HTML/ERB is a different matter, a particularly irritating trait for a markup language. It's not difficult to imagine good engineers being considerably less productive in HAML
lucisferre 13y ago
Except that yours doesn't make logical sense. You're suggesting that someone who is good (?) at HTML and CSS can't grok Haml syntax. That just doesn't compute.

Have you wrote about their issue somewhere else in details ? I'm on the same side as the parent comment[1] and I really wish to read and ~understand what I'm missing[2]. [1] I'm natively wired to run toward very dense 'interfaces' (ui, syntax) [2] Honest open question, don't wanna 'argue'.

briandear 13y ago

Is HAML really that hard? It seems pretty damned elementary to me. The hardest part is simply being sure you're using soft tabs. So called "front-end engineers" who can't understand haml after 3 minutes have no business calling themselves "front-end engineers"

trustfundbaby 13y ago
Nope, but whats wrong with html or something that resembles it closely enough without the whitespace active stuff and extra syntax. I'll give you the answer ... nothing. Haml feels like just an unnecessary abstraction on top of something (html) that was just fine to begin with. But a lot of engineers seem to like it, so I think its great for those people. > So called "front-end engineers" who can't understand haml after 3 minutes have no business calling themselves "front-end engineers" Gotta love the arrogance of the remark :) Remember that there are tons of people that aren't classically trained "engineers" that have to work on apps around the world, lets spare a thought for them ;) More seriously, I don't think the argument is them understanding haml. The problem is the learning curve. Its not that steep but having to look up how to do stuff that you could just type right away from memory in plain html every 5 minutes, slows you down, and people want to move quickly. Theres also the fact that when haml breaks you get a Rails error vs the way html breaks which is that the display just looks all wonky. Lets not underestimate that. > Is HAML really that hard? Again, what are all the objective "benefits" of haml that necessitate having to learn this new abstraction? I can tell you why I use Rails over Cakephp, but what is the problem that haml is trying to solve exactly?
- slantyyz 13y ago
  >> what is the problem that haml is trying to solve exactly Speaking only from personal experience (and I'm talking about my own bad habits with HTML), I have had plenty of bugs related to mismatched open and close tags in heavily nested HTML code, which would result in time consuming debugging. I've all but eliminated these types of issues by using Haml. I no longer have to worry about accidentally deleting the wrong close tag when de-nesting a block of markup. Is it a cure-all for everyone? Not at all. But for some people, it's a godsend.
notahacker 13y ago
Learning HAML is elementary. Writing HAML consistently well enough to avoid triggering unnecessary compiler errors due to minor indentation issues that simply wouldn't affect output if you were writing HTML/ERB is a different matter, a particularly irritating trait for a markup language. It's not difficult to imagine good engineers being considerably less productive in HAML

lucisferre 13y ago

Except that yours doesn't make logical sense. You're suggesting that someone who is good (?) at HTML and CSS can't grok Haml syntax. That just doesn't compute.