3 ms·

Not many people would know Theo "personally" but you do know his reputation. You do right? That's all that is required to give his statements some weight.

gonzo 13y ago
Do you know Theo? Because the Theo I know was kicked out of the netbsd project for being an asshole. He hasn't changed, really.
- luckydude 13y ago
  Um, I've had Theo in my house. I've known him for a long time, we've had technical conversations about the kernel that 99% of the people here couldn't understand (maybe it is me but I am so sick of "look at me I've figured this out" and it is stuff you should have learned as an undergrad. Go code more and talk less.) My opinion is until you have done as much as Theo has done you should maybe not talk so much.
  - baq 13y ago
    being an asshole and getting shit done are orthogonal characteristics.
  - SimHacker 13y ago
    Theo has earned my respect and the right to be as much of an asshole as he wants. The important things he's so good at doing often require that of him, so it's not counter-productive or self defeating. I also have a tremendous amount of respect for RMS, and forgive his personality quirks, although I'd never want to work for him. Unfortunately, a lot of his personality quirks and ways of communicating are self defeating. But more importantly, his beliefs are totally logical and consistent and well thought out, and he sticks by them. It's his priorities and his way of communicating them that people have problems with. He's also got a brilliant sense of humor, that a lot of people just don't get, and take offense at, when he was just trying to make them think. But at the same time, he's incredibly easy to wind up by mentioning Open Source Software. But I think he's in on the joke and it's just a theatrical performance, like Saint IGNUcius. My Emacs Hacker Boss from UniPress Software and I ran into him at a scifi con, and my "Evil Software Hoarder" colleague asked him "I heard a terrible rumor about your house burning down. Is it true?" He fired back without missing a beat, "Yes, but where you work, you probably heard about it in advance." We all had a laugh and no offense was taken: he's got a sharp sense of humor and he's quick on his feet! Here he is being a total dick, by chastising someone for posting a baby announcement (who is now 21 years old) to a mailing list about having dinner on the other side of the continent as he was on. But he's fucking brilliant and hilarious and makes some excellent points that are totally consistent with his beliefs, even through he wound everyone up and was repeatedly told to fuck off in various ways, which he took in stride. http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html "You people just have no sense of humor. I thought the original message was pretty funny and made a few good points (if it didn't, nobody would have been offended). I guess it's a shock for smug self-righteous breeders to learn that not everybody in the world thinks babies are cute and special. -Wayne A. Christopher" "Finally, someone read the message as it was intended to be read. -RMS" "I'm somewhat surprised by the idea that a mere message from me could torpedo the happiness of parents. I'd think it wouldn't even come close to doing that. Not that I wanted to do that. The most I thought it could do was to discourage the posting birth announcements. -RMS" RMS is like William Shatner, in that he's in on the joke, and can have a good laugh at himself, and at least he isn't the mean kind of narcissist. To extend that metaphor further than I should: RMS = Captain Kirk, Theo = Spock, ESR = Harvey Mudd, Microsoft = Klingons, and Free Open Source Software = Tribbles.
- vithlani 13y ago
  OpenSSH. That one project and the integrity with which he has run it forgives all the problems you might perceive him to have had. And yes, sometimes you have no option but to be an ass hole to get your point across. Linus has equally been accused of the same.
  - SimHacker 13y ago
    And here's to the fond yet irritating memory of the late great inspirational asshole, Eric Naggum. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-de/ErikNaggum http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-de/ErikNaggum "But there is still one thing that America has taught the world. You have taught us all that giving second chances is not just generosity, but the wisdom that even the best of us sometimes make stupid mistakes that it would be grossly unfair to believe were one's true nature." -Eric Naggum "I learned a lot from talking to Erik on matters technical and non-technical. But one thing I learned, not from what he said, but from the meta-discussion which was always there about whether to tolerate him, is that I think we as people are not all the same. We make rules of manners and good ways to be that are for typical people. But the really exceptional people among us are not typical. Often the people who achieve things in fact do so because of some idiosyncracy of them, some failing they have turned to a strength." -Kent Pitmann "The purpose of human existence is to learn and to understand as much as we can of what came before us, so we can further the sum total of human knowledge in our life." —Erik Naggum http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2009/06/24/erik_naggum_rip http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2009/06/24/erik_naggu...
- SimHacker 13y ago
  Since you've been so generous to offer you opinion of Theo, I think it's only fair and balanced for me to offer my opinion of Eric the Flute, in a way that is consistent with Eric's own name dropping protocol. I believe that Eric the Flute was disrespectful to Linus by labeling ESR's "Many Eyes" theory "Linus's Law". I believe that Eric the Flute was disrespectful to RMS by relabeling RMS's "Free Software" movement "Open Source". I believe that Eric the Flute has made a career out of bogging down the FOSS world in internal doctrinal disputes, and that his "many eyes" argument gives people a false sense of security in open source software, and that kind of pap diverts attention and money away from supporting qualified eyeballs and assholes who do the incredibly difficult and tedious work of meticulously reviewing code and fixing bugs like Theo De Raadt does. And I believe that Eric the Flute is being a narcissistic hypocrite when he writes stuff like this recent blog posting, with numbered instructions for where, when and how to drop and not drop his name. Specifically, number two, which gives me the right to drop his name in this context: Namedropping "ESR" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266 2. Do drop my name if by doing so you can achieve some mission objective of which I would approve. Examples that have come up: encouraging people to design in accordance with the Unix philosophy, or settling a dispute about hacker slang, or explaining why it's important for everyone's freedom for the hacker community to hang together and not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes. So it's important to "not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes", huh? My mission is to explain why it's important for people in the FOSS community not to base their careers on tearing other people down. Why can't we all just get along, huh? I'd like to hear Eric the Flute explain how his goal of "not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes" squares with his decades-long ongoing feud with RMS about "free software" -vs- "open source software" on which he's based career? And I'd like to ask him to please stop encouraging his followers to act as if there's some kind of war going on between Free Software and Open Source Software. For example, Eric the Flute's friend and fellow right wing global warming denying libertarian gun nut internet celebrity "Tron Guy" Jay Maynard (who fawningly replied to that blog posting "FWIW, I apply my own fame in much the same way, and follow this set of rules both for myself and for my friendship with Eric. Like him, I didn’t set out to become famous.") has taken a stand on wikipedia and his Hercules emulator project about how there is a war going on, and he ideologically opposes Free Software but supports Open Source Software, and it's insulting to him for anyone to insinuate otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hercules_(emulator)#So-called_.22free_software.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hercules_(emulator)#So-ca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jay_Maynard#Hercules_and_so-called_.22free_software.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jay_Maynard#Hercules_and_... The Hercules development community generally objects to the term "free software", and in several instances contributes to Hercules specifically as a reaction to the misuse of the term. As long as the portal and the categories use this misleading term to apply to software that is freely available and redistributable, please do not add Hercules to them, since it implies support for the "free software" side of the ongoing political war that does not, in fact, exist. -- Jay Maynard (talk) 08:57, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Please do not ascribe to me a viewpoint I do not hold. Hercules rejects the term "free software", and many of its developers - including me - contribute to the project on the explicit basis that it is not part of that world. This has been hashed out at the Talk:Hercules emulator page. Calling it "free software" here ascribes to me a view that I not only do not hold, but actively disagree with. Please don't count me as a supporter of "free software", the FSF, or Richard M. Stallman, and please don't enlist me on your side of the "free software"/open source war. I believe calling it "free software" is argument by redefinition, and fundamentally dishonest. It's also a naked attempt to glorify a major restriction of freedom for programmers by nevertheless calling it "free", in the same vein as "War is peace". The concept of freedom is far too valuable to demean it in that manner. As for "but it's free software anyway", the reverse argument, that "free software" is all open source, is just as valid - yet "free software" zealots reject it out of hand and say "don't co-opt our work!" Well, that sword cuts both ways. I am not a member of the so-called "free software" movement and never will be. Please don't insult me and misrepresent my views by calling me one. -- Jay Maynard (talk) 13:22, 16 August 2010 (UTC) I wonder where "Tron Guy" got those ideas about this "ongoing political war" about "Free" -vs- "Open Source" software, and why he's getting so bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Eric_S._Raymond http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Eric_S._Raymond Like Lubos Motl, his crankery is a counterpoint to his area of brilliance, not a negation of it. And I disagree with just about every political opinion ESR has. (And have actually argued them with his good friend Jay Maynard.) - David Gerard (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC) It saddens me that Jay "Tron Guy" Maynard is one of ESR's fans. Turns out the guy who made cosplay respectable for grownups is a right-wing asshole -- wonder if he's a brony? (Anyway, it seems he's given up lead maintainership of the Hercules mainframe emulator, so, um... yay?) EVDebs (talk) 23:42, 10 July 2013 (UTC) For more background on Eric the Flute: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond

gonzo 13y ago

Do you know Theo? Because the Theo I know was kicked out of the netbsd project for being an asshole. He hasn't changed, really.

luckydude 13y ago
Um, I've had Theo in my house. I've known him for a long time, we've had technical conversations about the kernel that 99% of the people here couldn't understand (maybe it is me but I am so sick of "look at me I've figured this out" and it is stuff you should have learned as an undergrad. Go code more and talk less.) My opinion is until you have done as much as Theo has done you should maybe not talk so much.
- baq 13y ago
  being an asshole and getting shit done are orthogonal characteristics.
- SimHacker 13y ago
  Theo has earned my respect and the right to be as much of an asshole as he wants. The important things he's so good at doing often require that of him, so it's not counter-productive or self defeating. I also have a tremendous amount of respect for RMS, and forgive his personality quirks, although I'd never want to work for him. Unfortunately, a lot of his personality quirks and ways of communicating are self defeating. But more importantly, his beliefs are totally logical and consistent and well thought out, and he sticks by them. It's his priorities and his way of communicating them that people have problems with. He's also got a brilliant sense of humor, that a lot of people just don't get, and take offense at, when he was just trying to make them think. But at the same time, he's incredibly easy to wind up by mentioning Open Source Software. But I think he's in on the joke and it's just a theatrical performance, like Saint IGNUcius. My Emacs Hacker Boss from UniPress Software and I ran into him at a scifi con, and my "Evil Software Hoarder" colleague asked him "I heard a terrible rumor about your house burning down. Is it true?" He fired back without missing a beat, "Yes, but where you work, you probably heard about it in advance." We all had a laugh and no offense was taken: he's got a sharp sense of humor and he's quick on his feet! Here he is being a total dick, by chastising someone for posting a baby announcement (who is now 21 years old) to a mailing list about having dinner on the other side of the continent as he was on. But he's fucking brilliant and hilarious and makes some excellent points that are totally consistent with his beliefs, even through he wound everyone up and was repeatedly told to fuck off in various ways, which he took in stride. http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html "You people just have no sense of humor. I thought the original message was pretty funny and made a few good points (if it didn't, nobody would have been offended). I guess it's a shock for smug self-righteous breeders to learn that not everybody in the world thinks babies are cute and special. -Wayne A. Christopher" "Finally, someone read the message as it was intended to be read. -RMS" "I'm somewhat surprised by the idea that a mere message from me could torpedo the happiness of parents. I'd think it wouldn't even come close to doing that. Not that I wanted to do that. The most I thought it could do was to discourage the posting birth announcements. -RMS" RMS is like William Shatner, in that he's in on the joke, and can have a good laugh at himself, and at least he isn't the mean kind of narcissist. To extend that metaphor further than I should: RMS = Captain Kirk, Theo = Spock, ESR = Harvey Mudd, Microsoft = Klingons, and Free Open Source Software = Tribbles.
vithlani 13y ago
OpenSSH. That one project and the integrity with which he has run it forgives all the problems you might perceive him to have had. And yes, sometimes you have no option but to be an ass hole to get your point across. Linus has equally been accused of the same.
- SimHacker 13y ago
  And here's to the fond yet irritating memory of the late great inspirational asshole, Eric Naggum. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-de/ErikNaggum http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-de/ErikNaggum "But there is still one thing that America has taught the world. You have taught us all that giving second chances is not just generosity, but the wisdom that even the best of us sometimes make stupid mistakes that it would be grossly unfair to believe were one's true nature." -Eric Naggum "I learned a lot from talking to Erik on matters technical and non-technical. But one thing I learned, not from what he said, but from the meta-discussion which was always there about whether to tolerate him, is that I think we as people are not all the same. We make rules of manners and good ways to be that are for typical people. But the really exceptional people among us are not typical. Often the people who achieve things in fact do so because of some idiosyncracy of them, some failing they have turned to a strength." -Kent Pitmann "The purpose of human existence is to learn and to understand as much as we can of what came before us, so we can further the sum total of human knowledge in our life." —Erik Naggum http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2009/06/24/erik_naggum_rip http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2009/06/24/erik_naggu...
SimHacker 13y ago
Since you've been so generous to offer you opinion of Theo, I think it's only fair and balanced for me to offer my opinion of Eric the Flute, in a way that is consistent with Eric's own name dropping protocol. I believe that Eric the Flute was disrespectful to Linus by labeling ESR's "Many Eyes" theory "Linus's Law". I believe that Eric the Flute was disrespectful to RMS by relabeling RMS's "Free Software" movement "Open Source". I believe that Eric the Flute has made a career out of bogging down the FOSS world in internal doctrinal disputes, and that his "many eyes" argument gives people a false sense of security in open source software, and that kind of pap diverts attention and money away from supporting qualified eyeballs and assholes who do the incredibly difficult and tedious work of meticulously reviewing code and fixing bugs like Theo De Raadt does. And I believe that Eric the Flute is being a narcissistic hypocrite when he writes stuff like this recent blog posting, with numbered instructions for where, when and how to drop and not drop his name. Specifically, number two, which gives me the right to drop his name in this context: Namedropping "ESR" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266 2. Do drop my name if by doing so you can achieve some mission objective of which I would approve. Examples that have come up: encouraging people to design in accordance with the Unix philosophy, or settling a dispute about hacker slang, or explaining why it's important for everyone's freedom for the hacker community to hang together and not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes. So it's important to "not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes", huh? My mission is to explain why it's important for people in the FOSS community not to base their careers on tearing other people down. Why can't we all just get along, huh? I'd like to hear Eric the Flute explain how his goal of "not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes" squares with his decades-long ongoing feud with RMS about "free software" -vs- "open source software" on which he's based career? And I'd like to ask him to please stop encouraging his followers to act as if there's some kind of war going on between Free Software and Open Source Software. For example, Eric the Flute's friend and fellow right wing global warming denying libertarian gun nut internet celebrity "Tron Guy" Jay Maynard (who fawningly replied to that blog posting "FWIW, I apply my own fame in much the same way, and follow this set of rules both for myself and for my friendship with Eric. Like him, I didn’t set out to become famous.") has taken a stand on wikipedia and his Hercules emulator project about how there is a war going on, and he ideologically opposes Free Software but supports Open Source Software, and it's insulting to him for anyone to insinuate otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hercules_(emulator)#So-called_.22free_software.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hercules_(emulator)#So-ca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jay_Maynard#Hercules_and_so-called_.22free_software.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jay_Maynard#Hercules_and_... The Hercules development community generally objects to the term "free software", and in several instances contributes to Hercules specifically as a reaction to the misuse of the term. As long as the portal and the categories use this misleading term to apply to software that is freely available and redistributable, please do not add Hercules to them, since it implies support for the "free software" side of the ongoing political war that does not, in fact, exist. -- Jay Maynard (talk) 08:57, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Please do not ascribe to me a viewpoint I do not hold. Hercules rejects the term "free software", and many of its developers - including me - contribute to the project on the explicit basis that it is not part of that world. This has been hashed out at the Talk:Hercules emulator page. Calling it "free software" here ascribes to me a view that I not only do not hold, but actively disagree with. Please don't count me as a supporter of "free software", the FSF, or Richard M. Stallman, and please don't enlist me on your side of the "free software"/open source war. I believe calling it "free software" is argument by redefinition, and fundamentally dishonest. It's also a naked attempt to glorify a major restriction of freedom for programmers by nevertheless calling it "free", in the same vein as "War is peace". The concept of freedom is far too valuable to demean it in that manner. As for "but it's free software anyway", the reverse argument, that "free software" is all open source, is just as valid - yet "free software" zealots reject it out of hand and say "don't co-opt our work!" Well, that sword cuts both ways. I am not a member of the so-called "free software" movement and never will be. Please don't insult me and misrepresent my views by calling me one. -- Jay Maynard (talk) 13:22, 16 August 2010 (UTC) I wonder where "Tron Guy" got those ideas about this "ongoing political war" about "Free" -vs- "Open Source" software, and why he's getting so bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Eric_S._Raymond http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Eric_S._Raymond Like Lubos Motl, his crankery is a counterpoint to his area of brilliance, not a negation of it. And I disagree with just about every political opinion ESR has. (And have actually argued them with his good friend Jay Maynard.) - David Gerard (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC) It saddens me that Jay "Tron Guy" Maynard is one of ESR's fans. Turns out the guy who made cosplay respectable for grownups is a right-wing asshole -- wonder if he's a brony? (Anyway, it seems he's given up lead maintainership of the Hercules mainframe emulator, so, um... yay?) EVDebs (talk) 23:42, 10 July 2013 (UTC) For more background on Eric the Flute: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond