6 ms·

"Google offers free OSes to computer and phone makers as a way of driving the use of its search engine and countless other web services, and now, Microsoft is a

"Google offers free OSes to computer and phone makers as a way of driving the use of its search engine and countless other web services, and now, Microsoft is at least experimenting with the idea of doing much the same thing. According to the report, its free operating system is known as Windows 8.1 With Bing. As the name implies, the OS is meant to feed the use of Microsoft’s own search engine, as well as other Microsoft cloud services and software applications." That's not even the start of the problem with Microsoft OSes, from my perspective. I bought a Dell machine this month with great specs and Windows 8.1 on it. I Clonezilla'd the drives with Windows on them and paved over with Mint 16 because (1) it's less painful to maintain and (2) I can script the installation of software I need to develop with. I've done battle with UEFI once and now I have a system I like. So Microsoft OSes are too expensive even if they were free. And I used MS DOS and Windows for 20 years before moving to Linux. No, something huge would have to happen before I go back, and free is not enough.

EpicEng 13y ago
Ok, but you hardly represent a majority of the Windows user base. Few people care about scripting installations.
bifftannen 13y ago
You can script the OS and application install with WDS, SCCM, and AD. Just because you can't or won't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
- mappu 13y ago
  Can you script all those common installers that are (a) not an msi, (b) don't have a /SILENT switch or other unattended installation, (c) require license input, or any combination thereof? I guess you could use AutoHotkey to simulate mouse clicks, or attempt to repackage the software yourself. But when comparing the ability to script installations in general, linux has a major, major advantage.
  - cbhl 13y ago
    Repacking all the software yourself so that you can automate the installation of packages is hardly what I'd consider a solution. In practice, people use drive images of Windows, or Ninite, or pay the neighbourhood PFK $12/hr to "automate" it.
    - delian66 13y ago
      What is neighbourhood PFK ?
      - estebank 13y ago
        Pimple Faced Kid
- beagle3 13y ago
  That's almost funny. I was too lazy to do things properly (kickstart script, etc.) so I have a bash script with about 10 "apt-get install" lines that set up everything I want on Ubuntu or debian, and a few more "echo" lines that configure 90% of my other preferences. 50 line scripts that contain very little other than the names of the programs I want or the configuration I want. Let's say I just got a new computer with Windows 7/8, not part of a domain or anything - just a new laptop. Care to list the steps needed to get into your favorite state (list YOUR favorite 10 apps you need to install)
  - leo_mck 13y ago
    I just use the same old .exe that I generate from ninite.com. It takes just one click and I have all my favorite apps running. I just need to install VS2013 and are good to go. It can't be more simple than this.
    - beagle3 13y ago
      Just looked at ninite again (after having not done so in years) and was pleasantly surprised - although it's still very pale compared to Debian's 20k strong packages. But it's definitely a good start. (It can be simpler than this - it is, on modern Linux)
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
  - rblatz 13y ago
    I would use chocolatey nuget http://chocolatey.org http://chocolatey.org. That's how I set up my last machine. Didn't think to a make it a .bat file, but I will next time I build a new machine.
  - csense 13y ago
    > Care to list the steps needed to get into your favorite state Well, first you have to figure out how the screen capture API for Windows. Then you have to take screenshots of each screen of the installer program of each application you have to run. Write image recognition code to figure out the location of each button on each tab of each installer screen. Then delve further into the Windows API's to write code to inject mouse movements or keystrokes to make the installations happen. Oh, and if you're using this with a newer version of Windows that uses a different font, or slightly different styling for buttons, or has different UAC dialogs, you're totally hosed. Ditto if any of the installers releases a new version, you may have to make changes. This example demonstrates a command line interface's obvious, inherent, even self-evident superiority to any GUI. Why anyone puts up with the GUI at all is beyond me. It took me ten years to figure out how to get anything done in the GUI when Windows 95 was released; before that, I used the command line pretty much exclusively for moving/copying files and the like.
bruce511 13y ago
What you are describing here is the cost of changing from an OS you know, to one that you don't. Since this cost greatly exceeds the sticker price of windows, or Mac for that matter, it is the real reason why people tend to stick with the OS they already know how to use. It's one of the reasons why Linux never got much traction on the desktop. Sure it made a great desktop OS for the technorati but Joe Public knows how to do what he wants in Windows, and saving $50 isnt incentive enough for him to change. As you say, "free is not enough". Incidentally the exact same thing plays out with regard to apps. Office may have strong Open Source competition, but free is not enough there either to get most people to switch. This effect is not limited to the OS itself, but extends to the flavor of the OS as well. Despite what the popular press says, windows 8 is not bad, but it is different. Vista was better than you think, but wasa different to XP and so on. Xp was the gold standard for a long time, so it's easy to forget how much people resisted it at first. And before you get too smug, look at the division in the Linux market right now over Unity. Here's the thing. The price of the OS is irrelevant. Free is not an advantage. Windows will exist on the desktop for many years to come, and will likely flop on the phone. But price will have nothing to do with either outcome.
- hrjet 13y ago
  Familiarity is more of a problem for the older generations of people. But they are a receding market share. And my hunch is that newer generations are more adaptive to new interfaces, having grown into a world where there already many options available.
- hughdbrown 13y ago
  Well, thanks, but I am not smug about this. I don't care if Windows lives or dies. I've moved on. We are no longer dating. And here's how it happened: http://www.iwebthereforeiam.com/iwebthereforeiam/2009/10/introducing-windows-7-your-pc-simplified.html http://www.iwebthereforeiam.com/iwebthereforeiam/2009/10/int... I was a happy Windows developer (DOS, Windows 3,1, NT, Windows 95, Windows whatever) and found that windows was too annoying to live with. And I don't pretend this is everyone's situation or even anyone else's. It doesn't matter to me. I've moved on and I'm happy.
kamaal 13y ago
>I can script the installation of software I need to develop with. I've d... This is a serious problem with Linux'es. Seriously, what user base is Linux optimizing for? Nearly 100% of the people using a computer don't have to ever do such a thing ever. People use computers to get work done, or get some entertainment. Not play with their guts. Imagine if your TV or Washing Machine, or even you Car required you to have deep understanding of Electronics or mechanical engineering to just get them working. I'm sure we people who call ourselves hackers wouldn't touch such a thing with a 10 foot pole.
- 10098 13y ago
  You missed the point completely. "I can script the installation of software I need to develop with" means he can simply write a script (similar to a windows batch file) that automatically installs whatever software he needs using the package manager. You are not required to do this, and this is simply a convenient method of preparing a freshly installed OS for use. For example, if I install an OS on a new machine, I usually install chrome, openbox, tint2, etc. I have a script that does that for me so that I don't waste time installing every single piece separately. I don't even know how to do anything similar on Windows. If anything, the way software installation is managed on most linux distros (package managers and software repositories) is superior to the way it's done on Windows today (download setup.exe from god-knows-where and run it, and a constant pain in the ass with updates).
  - pjc50 13y ago
    To be fair, you can do this on Windows .. with the enterprise tools. It's just that there's no easy way to find this out and they require a domain controller anyway.

EpicEng 13y ago

Ok, but you hardly represent a majority of the Windows user base. Few people care about scripting installations.

bifftannen 13y ago

You can script the OS and application install with WDS, SCCM, and AD. Just because you can't or won't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

mappu 13y ago
Can you script all those common installers that are (a) not an msi, (b) don't have a /SILENT switch or other unattended installation, (c) require license input, or any combination thereof? I guess you could use AutoHotkey to simulate mouse clicks, or attempt to repackage the software yourself. But when comparing the ability to script installations in general, linux has a major, major advantage.
- cbhl 13y ago
  Repacking all the software yourself so that you can automate the installation of packages is hardly what I'd consider a solution. In practice, people use drive images of Windows, or Ninite, or pay the neighbourhood PFK $12/hr to "automate" it.
  - delian66 13y ago
    What is neighbourhood PFK ?
    - estebank 13y ago
      Pimple Faced Kid
beagle3 13y ago
That's almost funny. I was too lazy to do things properly (kickstart script, etc.) so I have a bash script with about 10 "apt-get install" lines that set up everything I want on Ubuntu or debian, and a few more "echo" lines that configure 90% of my other preferences. 50 line scripts that contain very little other than the names of the programs I want or the configuration I want. Let's say I just got a new computer with Windows 7/8, not part of a domain or anything - just a new laptop. Care to list the steps needed to get into your favorite state (list YOUR favorite 10 apps you need to install)
- leo_mck 13y ago
  I just use the same old .exe that I generate from ninite.com. It takes just one click and I have all my favorite apps running. I just need to install VS2013 and are good to go. It can't be more simple than this.
  - beagle3 13y ago
    Just looked at ninite again (after having not done so in years) and was pleasantly surprised - although it's still very pale compared to Debian's 20k strong packages. But it's definitely a good start. (It can be simpler than this - it is, on modern Linux)
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- rblatz 13y ago
  I would use chocolatey nuget http://chocolatey.org http://chocolatey.org. That's how I set up my last machine. Didn't think to a make it a .bat file, but I will next time I build a new machine.
- csense 13y ago
  > Care to list the steps needed to get into your favorite state Well, first you have to figure out how the screen capture API for Windows. Then you have to take screenshots of each screen of the installer program of each application you have to run. Write image recognition code to figure out the location of each button on each tab of each installer screen. Then delve further into the Windows API's to write code to inject mouse movements or keystrokes to make the installations happen. Oh, and if you're using this with a newer version of Windows that uses a different font, or slightly different styling for buttons, or has different UAC dialogs, you're totally hosed. Ditto if any of the installers releases a new version, you may have to make changes. This example demonstrates a command line interface's obvious, inherent, even self-evident superiority to any GUI. Why anyone puts up with the GUI at all is beyond me. It took me ten years to figure out how to get anything done in the GUI when Windows 95 was released; before that, I used the command line pretty much exclusively for moving/copying files and the like.

bruce511 13y ago

What you are describing here is the cost of changing from an OS you know, to one that you don't. Since this cost greatly exceeds the sticker price of windows, or Mac for that matter, it is the real reason why people tend to stick with the OS they already know how to use. It's one of the reasons why Linux never got much traction on the desktop. Sure it made a great desktop OS for the technorati but Joe Public knows how to do what he wants in Windows, and saving $50 isnt incentive enough for him to change. As you say, "free is not enough". Incidentally the exact same thing plays out with regard to apps. Office may have strong Open Source competition, but free is not enough there either to get most people to switch. This effect is not limited to the OS itself, but extends to the flavor of the OS as well. Despite what the popular press says, windows 8 is not bad, but it is different. Vista was better than you think, but wasa different to XP and so on. Xp was the gold standard for a long time, so it's easy to forget how much people resisted it at first. And before you get too smug, look at the division in the Linux market right now over Unity. Here's the thing. The price of the OS is irrelevant. Free is not an advantage. Windows will exist on the desktop for many years to come, and will likely flop on the phone. But price will have nothing to do with either outcome.

hrjet 13y ago
Familiarity is more of a problem for the older generations of people. But they are a receding market share. And my hunch is that newer generations are more adaptive to new interfaces, having grown into a world where there already many options available.
hughdbrown 13y ago
Well, thanks, but I am not smug about this. I don't care if Windows lives or dies. I've moved on. We are no longer dating. And here's how it happened: http://www.iwebthereforeiam.com/iwebthereforeiam/2009/10/introducing-windows-7-your-pc-simplified.html http://www.iwebthereforeiam.com/iwebthereforeiam/2009/10/int... I was a happy Windows developer (DOS, Windows 3,1, NT, Windows 95, Windows whatever) and found that windows was too annoying to live with. And I don't pretend this is everyone's situation or even anyone else's. It doesn't matter to me. I've moved on and I'm happy.

kamaal 13y ago

>I can script the installation of software I need to develop with. I've d... This is a serious problem with Linux'es. Seriously, what user base is Linux optimizing for? Nearly 100% of the people using a computer don't have to ever do such a thing ever. People use computers to get work done, or get some entertainment. Not play with their guts. Imagine if your TV or Washing Machine, or even you Car required you to have deep understanding of Electronics or mechanical engineering to just get them working. I'm sure we people who call ourselves hackers wouldn't touch such a thing with a 10 foot pole.

10098 13y ago
You missed the point completely. "I can script the installation of software I need to develop with" means he can simply write a script (similar to a windows batch file) that automatically installs whatever software he needs using the package manager. You are not required to do this, and this is simply a convenient method of preparing a freshly installed OS for use. For example, if I install an OS on a new machine, I usually install chrome, openbox, tint2, etc. I have a script that does that for me so that I don't waste time installing every single piece separately. I don't even know how to do anything similar on Windows. If anything, the way software installation is managed on most linux distros (package managers and software repositories) is superior to the way it's done on Windows today (download setup.exe from god-knows-where and run it, and a constant pain in the ass with updates).
- pjc50 13y ago
  To be fair, you can do this on Windows .. with the enterprise tools. It's just that there's no easy way to find this out and they require a domain controller anyway.