3 ms·

>> but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it. > That's been my

by lutusp 13y ago

>> but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it. > That's been my point this entire time. Yes, I know, and rather than take the advice of someone with six decades of English writing experience, you chose to defend a questionable word choice as thought it was self-evident. > You appear to be the only reader who was confused ... How very scientific. Has it occurred to you that I am also the only reader? In any case, this is easily resolved by polling common usage: Google: "Sincere belief": 207,000 uses, "Genuine belief": 137,000 uses. And looking more carefully, one finds that many of the "genuine belief" citations are meant to refer to a belief in something thought to be true. Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw, in which this remark appears in the comments: "How could a belief that contradicts available information be a genuine belief?" > and the ones who do spend most of their time attempting to argue that everyone else doesn't know how to effectively communicate. To the degree that I do this at all, I reserve my efforts for examples in which ... wait for it ... someone clearly doesn't know how to effectively communicate.

baddox 13y ago
> Yes, I know, and rather than take the advice of someone with six decades of English writing experience, you chose to defend a questionable word choice as thought it was self-evident. I don't care how much writing experience you have or claim to have. You're wrong in this case. All the evidence is against you, and frankly I'm confused why you persist in your argument. Your use of Google results of as suppose evidence is extremely damning to your own position and to your grasp of the English language. So my usage is 66% as common as yours? That's pretty good evidence that both are very common and well-accepted. You're also implying that only the most common way to phrase an idea should be used, which is ludicrous, especially coming from someone who claims to have writing experience. "Cat" has 447 million results, while "feline" has a mere 11.2 million, so according to your logic, "feline" is a misuse of the English language. > And looking more carefully, one finds that many of the "genuine belief" citations are meant to refer to a belief in something thought to be true. In something thought to be true? That's what the word "believe" means. Have you been reading my comments closely? My entire point is that a "genuine belief" is a belief which is sincerely held by someone, regardless of whether the thing believed is itself real. The Google results for "genuine belief" support my usage. I checked literally every result in the first two pages, and every single one supports my usage. A few examples: "As rape is sexual intercourse without consent, a man who has a genuine belief that the woman was consenting cannot be convicted of rape even where she did not in fact consent." http://www.hkclic.org/en/topics/sexual_offences/I_Non-consensual_Sexual_Offences/B_Rape/1_Elements_of_the_offence/b_Consent/iii_Genuine_belief_in_consent/ http://www.hkclic.org/en/topics/sexual_offences/I_Non-consen... "Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief, people would give their lives in support of that belief." http://www.mydd.com/users/gary-boatwright/posts/the-man-the-dude-and http://www.mydd.com/users/gary-boatwright/posts/the-man-the-... "How do you know when your child has genuine belief and should be baptized?" http://str.typepad.com/weblog/2012/01/how-do-you-know-when-your-child-has-genuine-belief-video.html http://str.typepad.com/weblog/2012/01/how-do-you-know-when-y... "The well known case of British Homes Stores v Burchell (EAT 1980 ICR 303) provides that where an employer dismisses on suspicion of misconduct they must establish (i) that they held a genuine belief the employee was guilty of the alleged misconduct, (ii) that the genuine belief is based on reasonable grounds, and (iii) the grounds for holding that belief were established after an investigation that was reasonable in all the circumstances of the case. The Tribunal does not necessarily have to agree with the employer’s view or consider whether their conclusion was objectively correct or justified." http://www.allanmcdougall.co.uk/employment_law/unfair_dismissal_conduct.php http://www.allanmcdougall.co.uk/employment_law/unfair_dismis... "Liverpool are heading into the final 13 games of the Barclays Premier League campaign harbouring a genuine belief they can clinch a top-four finish, according to Mike Marsh." http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/we-have-genuine-top-four-belief http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/we-have-genuine-...
baddox 13y ago
I should add that I suffered through the video you mentioned (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw) long enough to establish that the word usage in the video's description matches my usage. She is arguing that people who believe in Hell (in the context of Christianity) do not truly/sincerely/actually/genuinely believe. Her argument is that belief based on fear rather than on evidence and sensory experience is not true/sincere/actual/genuine belief. She references fideism and belief for the sake of belief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Belief_in_belief http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Belief_in_belief

by lutusp 13y ago

baddox 13y ago

> Yes, I know, and rather than take the advice of someone with six decades of English writing experience, you chose to defend a questionable word choice as thought it was self-evident. I don't care how much writing experience you have or claim to have. You're wrong in this case. All the evidence is against you, and frankly I'm confused why you persist in your argument. Your use of Google results of as suppose evidence is extremely damning to your own position and to your grasp of the English language. So my usage is 66% as common as yours? That's pretty good evidence that both are very common and well-accepted. You're also implying that only the most common way to phrase an idea should be used, which is ludicrous, especially coming from someone who claims to have writing experience. "Cat" has 447 million results, while "feline" has a mere 11.2 million, so according to your logic, "feline" is a misuse of the English language. > And looking more carefully, one finds that many of the "genuine belief" citations are meant to refer to a belief in something thought to be true. In something thought to be true? That's what the word "believe" means. Have you been reading my comments closely? My entire point is that a "genuine belief" is a belief which is sincerely held by someone, regardless of whether the thing believed is itself real. The Google results for "genuine belief" support my usage. I checked literally every result in the first two pages, and every single one supports my usage. A few examples: "As rape is sexual intercourse without consent, a man who has a genuine belief that the woman was consenting cannot be convicted of rape even where she did not in fact consent." http://www.hkclic.org/en/topics/sexual_offences/I_Non-consensual_Sexual_Offences/B_Rape/1_Elements_of_the_offence/b_Consent/iii_Genuine_belief_in_consent/ http://www.hkclic.org/en/topics/sexual_offences/I_Non-consen... "Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief, people would give their lives in support of that belief." http://www.mydd.com/users/gary-boatwright/posts/the-man-the-dude-and http://www.mydd.com/users/gary-boatwright/posts/the-man-the-... "How do you know when your child has genuine belief and should be baptized?" http://str.typepad.com/weblog/2012/01/how-do-you-know-when-your-child-has-genuine-belief-video.html http://str.typepad.com/weblog/2012/01/how-do-you-know-when-y... "The well known case of British Homes Stores v Burchell (EAT 1980 ICR 303) provides that where an employer dismisses on suspicion of misconduct they must establish (i) that they held a genuine belief the employee was guilty of the alleged misconduct, (ii) that the genuine belief is based on reasonable grounds, and (iii) the grounds for holding that belief were established after an investigation that was reasonable in all the circumstances of the case. The Tribunal does not necessarily have to agree with the employer’s view or consider whether their conclusion was objectively correct or justified." http://www.allanmcdougall.co.uk/employment_law/unfair_dismissal_conduct.php http://www.allanmcdougall.co.uk/employment_law/unfair_dismis... "Liverpool are heading into the final 13 games of the Barclays Premier League campaign harbouring a genuine belief they can clinch a top-four finish, according to Mike Marsh." http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/we-have-genuine-top-four-belief http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/we-have-genuine-...

baddox 13y ago

I should add that I suffered through the video you mentioned (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw) long enough to establish that the word usage in the video's description matches my usage. She is arguing that people who believe in Hell (in the context of Christianity) do not truly/sincerely/actually/genuinely believe. Her argument is that belief based on fear rather than on evidence and sensory experience is not true/sincere/actual/genuine belief. She references fideism and belief for the sake of belief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Belief_in_belief http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Belief_in_belief