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What Is the Time Signature of the Ominous Electronic Score of The Terminator?

138 points by jipumarino 13y ago

gonewest 13y ago
As a drummer I really like odd time signatures, for example the Pat Metheny Group song entitled "First Circle" is in 22/8... For fun, try memorizing and clapping the pattern at the opening of the piece. http://www.halfstepup.com/articles/odd-time-signatures-in-composition http://www.halfstepup.com/articles/odd-time-signatures-in-co... http://youtu.be/4YeoIn5-mSs http://youtu.be/4YeoIn5-mSs
- daeken 13y ago
  I'm also a big fan of odd time signatures, especially those that change. A great example of this is Dream Theater's "The Dance Of Eternity": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ftRhsvvfBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ftRhsvvfBw In ~6 minutes, there are 104 time signature changes, largely between 3/2, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 7/4. Another great one is Radiohead's "Pyramid Song": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbKQPqs-cqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbKQPqs-cqc It's in (3+3+4+3+3)/16 (depending on how you interpret it), and it's one of the hardest songs to count, as the last note is swung and deceptive. But it's a great composition.
  - fractalsea 13y ago
    I remember Sale to the Moon, also by Radiohead, as being particularly strange. It changes from bar to bar.
    - plaguuuuuu 13y ago
      from memory, one beat gets chopped off the end each repetition, or something like that.
  - psychometry 13y ago
    Pyramid Song is in 4/4. If you only listen to the piano part, then you might think it's odd, but when written in 4/4 the notes are just dotted quarter notes and half notes. The drum part is more revealing of the 4/4 time signature. http://cloud.freehandmusic.netdna-cdn.com/preview/530x4/warner/pyramsg.png http://cloud.freehandmusic.netdna-cdn.com/preview/530x4/warn...
    - daeken 13y ago
      This doesn't really follow, to me. If you count out the piano part, you get the groups of 3 pretty quickly, then the group of 4 that sits in the middle is immediately apparent. Counting the drums, to my ear, gives (5+4+4+3)/4, not 4/4. But admittedly, those could be counted differently. I definitely disagree completely that this song is in 4/4, though the exact groupings can be tough to determine.
      - psychometry 13y ago
        I assure you, it's in 4/4. I've transcribed and arranged this song myself. Also, that screenshot is from the official Amnesiac sheet music book.
- camus2 13y ago
  big fan of Tool drummer here so yeah, loving weird signatures.
  - daeken 13y ago
    Most of Tool's most interesting drum parts (to me, at least) aren't really weird time signatures, just weird polyrhythms. The Grudge is a fun one.
- stanleydrew 13y ago
  Dave Brubeck's Time Out has some well-known examples of interesting time signatures. My favorite is Kathy's Waltz [1]. The second half of the song includes a section in which the drummer maintains a 3/4 waltz beat while Dave improvises over top, seamlessly moving between the 3/4 waltz and a 4/4 swing. I don't know of any other similar performances, but would be interested if anybody can recommend some. [1] https://play.spotify.com/track/6qNWmjlMAW503WLZLfjUba https://play.spotify.com/track/6qNWmjlMAW503WLZLfjUba [Edit] Having just listened to it a second time, it's actually more interesting. The drummer is playing a kind of 6/8 but using the hi-hat on every other beat. The bass player is placing notes on beats 1 and 4, and Paul Desmond and Dave are improvising on top. I'd be interested in others' assessment of what's happening in that second part of the song though.
- NDizzle 13y ago
  Drummer that likes odd time signatures? Here's some Zappa for you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6uXANvaK1I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6uXANvaK1I
- plaguuuuuu 13y ago
  that piece is pretty awesome. rather more difficult to figure out than the terminator theme with all the syncopation and what not. I've always loved odd time sigs. I recently got turned on to Indian classical tabla music, which is utterly ridiculous.. I'd say the gap in complexity vs the above is comparable to 22/8 vs 4/4.
- yk_42 13y ago
  First Circle is one of the best (and hardest) songs that my former jazz orchestra played - I was on drums. We used a score from UNC, I believe. You're right that the time signature is effectively 22/8. Our charts were written in 12/8+10/8 alternating (22 beats) but there were 4 bars of 12/8 and one of 8/8 at the end of the verses. I think the solo sections were mostly 12/8. The song works best if the whole band feels the accented rhythms, rather than explicitly counting everything. But when it comes together, it is a powerful piece of music.
- philwelch 13y ago
  The song "Hey Ya!" by Outkast is in 11/4 time. There's no shortage of prog rock and prog metal in unusual time signatures but for a catchy hit song to have such a quirky rhythm was unusual.
- eCa 13y ago
  This is pretty odd: http://youtube.com/watch?v=69md7aLuo2I http://youtube.com/watch?v=69md7aLuo2I (Pete Zeldman/Enigma)
Aardwolf 13y ago
If you would have one beat a few milliseconds off, would that turn your 6/8 into e.g. 619/824? There is no strict boundary between which streams of sound are music and which are not, so have fun analyzing whatever else will come up.
- baddox 13y ago
  If I were annotating it, I would use some ad hoc notation. I would probably just say 13/16 with a note to add a quarter beat (or something like that) to the end of each measure. Another option might be decimal signatures, like 13.25/16.
crazygringo 13y ago
Fascinating. I think it's particularly tricky because I'd argue it's not 13/16, but rather 6.5/8, in terms of where we intuively feel the beats. (Like the traditional difference between 4/4 and 2/2.) But fractional top numbers in the time signature basically don't exist -- this is the first time I've come across something that feels like that -- hence why it's so hard to pin down.
- mzarate06 13y ago
  Hmm, so you don't hear 7/8? Maybe I'm off, but do you hear the repeating percussion pattern on these notes (-- means an eighth rest)? 1 & -- & 3 -- 4 & -- -- 6 7 I hear that through the entire track, and counting with 7/8 has each new bar starting nicely on the first eighth note. My vote is 7/8.
  - cperciva 13y ago
    It's definitely 1 (2) . 4 (5) . 7 (8) . 10 . 12 . where 1, 4, 7, 10, and 12 are strong notes, (2), (5), and (8) are weak notes, and the others are rests. Try counting "1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 2" and you'll find that it fits perfectly.
    - mzarate06 13y ago
      Ah yes, you're right. Thank you, great way of explaining it.
    - maroonblazer 13y ago
      "1 (2) . 4 (5) . 7 (8) . 10 . 12 ." isn't a time signature. It's 7/8.
      - cperciva 13y ago
        Of course that isn't a time signature. It's a listing of where the loud notes, quiet notes, and rests line up in the bar.
      - baddox 13y ago
wmij 13y ago
It sounds and feels like 7/8 to me. So it's 13/16, cool stuff! I have a clock at home that plays the Big Ben Westminster Chimes in 5/4 time. Once I figured out it played in 5/4, I think of "5" now every time I hear it. There is a definite art to creating melodies that feel good in odd time signatures.
cperciva 13y ago
As a classical musician it took me about three bars of audio to figure out that this was 3+3+3+2+2. I'd call it 13/8 rather than the 13/16 which the article suggests, but that's mostly a non-difference.
- plaguuuuuu 13y ago
  Drummer here.. Edited to rephrase this as a question as I'm not so sure any more :p If it were 13/8, wouldn't each bar would comprise two 'patterns' (forgot the correct term) with the second beginning halfway between beats 6 and 7? IMO makes less sense than it beginning at the start of a bar of 13/16.
  - cperciva 13y ago
    It depends whether the notes we're hearing are 8th notes or 16th notes. Given the style I'd say that they're fast 8ths rather than slow 16ths.
    - kisielk 13y ago
      I think another article (perhaps on Synthopia) stated the tempo was 190 bpm or thereabouts, so definitely 8ths.
- baddox 13y ago
  It would be relatively simple to plot steady subdivisions on the waveform and measure things closely. I don't have the software to do that right now, but I'm curious. It's definitely not exactly 13/16 (13 sixteenth notes), and definitely not exactly 7/8 (14 sixteenth notes), but it does feel closer to the former.
mzarate06 13y ago
I hear 7/8 all the way through. Because I can't remember how to phrase an up beat in an */8 time signature, think in terms of 7/4 for a moment. You can clearly hear the repeating percussion pattern on these notes throughout the entire track: 1 & [rest on 2] & 3 4 & [rest on 5] 6 7 I distinctly hear 7 downbeats each bar.
- rileyjshaw 13y ago
  Very close. The first beat comes in a little bit too soon to be 7/8... try tapping it out and you'll notice. Tapping with your first two taps on the first two drum hits will get you the right tempo. The reason that it can sound so close to 7/8 is because 7/8 = 14/16, which is only one sixteenth off of 13/16.
  - mzarate06 13y ago
    > The first beat comes in a little bit too soon to be 7/8 Are you referring to the opening note of the track? I'd argue that's a pickup note. Edit: Either way, I just tapped out to 13/16 and see how that fits perfectly. Thanks for explaining.
    - baddox 13y ago
      13/16 still isn't perfect. There is something like an extra quarter beat every measure, as in 13.25/16. Of course, that makes it closer to 13/16 than 7/8.
gooseyard 13y ago
Check out Ben Monder's "Rooms of Light" for a really brain-bending bit of counting.
skuunk1 13y ago
This one starts off in 17/16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFoYsqVqDcU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFoYsqVqDcU Hells Bells by Bill Bruford
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- plaguuuuuu 13y ago
  Also I think the first bit in Biblical Violence by Hella is 17/16. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7S-RhlG1bk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7S-RhlG1bk and this is apparently a transcription of one of the following parts in some sort of drumming tablature H |------|----|--------|----|---X--|----|--------|----|---X--|----|----------| t |o-----|o---|o---o---|o---|o-----|o---|o---o---|o---|o-----|o---|o---o---o-| S |-ooo--|--O-|-o---O--|--O-|-oooo-|--O-|-o---O--|--O-|-oo--o|--O-|-o---O----| B |o-oo-o|o---|o-oo---o|o---|o-oo-o|o---|o-oo---o|o---|o-oo-o|o---|o-oo---oo-| Hf|----x-|----|--------|-x--|----x-|----|--------|-x--|----x-|----|----------| ___1tl2tl|1 2 |1tl2tl3 |1 2 |1tl2tl|1 2 |1tl2tl3 |1 2 |1tl2tl|1 2 |1tl2tl3 4 | C |X----------|------|-----------|------|-----------|------|-----------|----X-| H |---X-------|------|---X-------|------|---X-------|------|---X-------|------| t |-------o---|o-----|o------o---|o-----|o------o---|o-----|o---oo-o---|o-----| S |-oo-ooo--O-|-o--O-|-oo-ooo--O-|-o--O-|-oo-ooo--O-|-o--O-|-oo---o--O-|-o--O-| B |o--o--oo---|o-oo--|o-oo--oo---|o-oo--|o-oo--oo---|o-oo--|o-oo--oo---|o-oo--| Hf|----x------|------|----x------|------|----x------|------|----x------|------| ___1tl2tl3tl4 |1 2 3 |1tl2tl3tl4 |1 2 3 |1tl2tl3tl4 |1 2 3 |1tl2tl3tl4 |1 2 3 | w.t.f.
- scottjackson 13y ago
  Pretty sure "Hell's Bells" starts/finishes in 19/16. A group of 7, a group of 7, then a group of 5.
- skuunk1 13y ago
  Whoops looks like I meant 19/16. Hard to count that fast...
kens 13y ago
It seems to me that time signatures assume a particular model of musical structure that doesn't apply to this score. According to the article, the sequence was looped a little short of a complete measure. So there's no reason to expect a rational time signature. It's kind of like creating music that repeats every π (pi) beats, and people arguing if the time signature is 25/8 or 22/7. (Actually that might be an interesting piece of music.)
- ghayes 13y ago
  On the latter part, you might want to check out Wikipedia's list of musical works in unusual time signatures[0], which includes: > "[Study] No. 40" for two non-synchronized pianos, version for player piano (punching score) by Conlon Nancarrow contains the mathematical constant e beats of pi. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusua...
- baddox 13y ago
  Along those lines, here's an interesting video of a drummer playing various looping samples of dialogue from movies or TV and finding a bizarre time signature that is a "close enough" fit. http://youtu.be/MHft4OR7Rus http://youtu.be/MHft4OR7Rus
leephillips 13y ago
Since we're comparing music with weird time signatures: Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, "Promenade" section, he wrote in 11/4 time, but it's usually published as alternating 5/4 and 6/4 because, presumably, performers find that less strange. Mussorgsky is notorious for having spent most of his life in a drunken stupor, including, or perhaps especially, when composing.
- cperciva 13y ago
  he wrote in 11/4 time, but it's usually published as alternating 5/4 and 6/4 because, presumably, performers find that less strange Oh god. I hate it when editors do this. I can't think of any musicians who find this any easier -- quiet the contrary. I think this practice originated in the early days of typeset music, when there were letter blocks available for 5/4 and 6/4 but not for 11/4. Whichever way it's printed, we just pencil "3 + 2 + 3 + 3" into our parts anyway...
- rootbear 13y ago
  The story I heard is that Mossorgsky wrote it that way because he walked with a limp. He wrote his limp into the time signature. This is probably an urban myth, as I can't seem to find any verification of it on line in a quick search.
teddyh 13y ago
From the article: > “DAH-doonk, dah-doonk, dah-doonk, gonk gonk.” That would actually be the Terminator 2 soundtrack. The soundtrack from The Terminator would go “DAH-doonk, doonk, dah-doonk, gonk gonk.”; i.e. 2-1-2-2 instead of 2-2-2-2. (Yes, this annoyed me back when Terminator 2 came out. Why, yes, I am old.)
- nzp 13y ago
  Isn't it the other way around? Terminator 2[0] is 2-1-2-2, and Terminator is 2-2-2-2. [0] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhWs3DVk-FU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhWs3DVk-FU
  - teddyh 13y ago
    Hey, wow, you’re right — I totally mixed them up. Now I feel silly.
    - nzp 13y ago
      Haha, don't. I would never notice that there's a difference if you had not pointed it out. :)
tunesmith 13y ago
Usually it's simple to just count in groups of three and two (or four). This is three threes and a four, so, thirteen. If you want to drill yourself on a bunch of different examples of this - 11, 13, 17, whatever - go listen to Balkan folk music.
- andybak 13y ago
  Don Ellis had a Bulgarian pianist (Milcho Leviev) in his Orchestra for a while and this was one of the glorious outcomes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUYtWvavvYg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUYtWvavvYg Here's a great blog that used to have regular posts on matters regarding peculiar meters: http://oddtimeobsessed.blogspot.co.uk/ http://oddtimeobsessed.blogspot.co.uk/
aaronsnoswell 13y ago
Time signatures are extrinsic to a piece of music; a 3/4 piece can be also be written as a x/y piece, it will just be confusing for the musicians to follow.
moondowner 13y ago
More goodies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusu...
pdkl95 13y ago
Obviously, it's a straight 4/4 ("Common Time")[0], with some swing and played tempo rubato ("robbed time")[1]. This is where the time allocated for the various beats is pushed around a bit by the performer to add character or emotional qualities. Very often, when the phrase "..with feeling!" is really speaking about rubato (or conversely, any "mechanical" quality a performance may have). "Stop playing it like a robot; now stat again, with feeling this time!" So many people have a hard time picking out the meter, because they are still using an incorrect assumption: that time (meter/tempo/beats/etc) in music is regular/consistent - or even well-defined in the first place. The important part to remember, when speaking of time-signatures, meter, and music theory in general, is that what's written (or even what was intended by a composer) is only a guide. They've drawn a model on the page, that is intended to help express how you go about playing a song, but just as "the map is not the territory", a quarter-note is not necessarily 1/4 of a measure in time[2]. This used to be more explicit in the Baroque era: you would see very simple notation on the page, and the performer was supposed to infer (and ad-lib their own) "embellishments" or "ornaments"[3] as they played. This doesn't apply to all music, and some songs would not work without their strict, mechanical interpretation of meter. Of particular note is "martial music"[4], which is often quite regular/low-rubato, and the Terminator theme has some march-like qualities such as its iconic sharp-beats. Martial music could be appropriate for Terminator's subject matter, too. Instead, we get a really-modern[5] song that was likely performed directly, skipping the sheet music step entirely. That's the thing about music; you can't really shove it all in to nice, neat pidgen-holes, and if you could, some artist would just go and write a song that broke everything, for the lulz. As the article mentions a Prophet-10, you also have to take into the considerations of the hardware involved, and how that influences everything, in large and/or subtle ways. If you're interested in the topic of how hardware and creativity are intertwined, LFT (Linus Akesson) gave a very interesting talk on the subject: "Poems for bugs"[6]. [0] There are other acceptable interpretations, of course, but that makes no difference. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_rubato http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_rubato [2] Also measures/bars don't necessarily have the same time either, and the frequency of a note (on instruments that allow it) can vary as well. [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_%28music%29#Western_classical_music http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_%28music%29#Western_cl... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_music http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_music [5] "Is it modern?" ~Emperor Joseph II, in Amadeus [6] http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/poems-for-bugs/index.php http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/poems-for-bugs/index...
Nux 13y ago
Terminator Score (everybody talks about it, nobody links it, wtf) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6o1ipWtHig http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6o1ipWtHig
MattBearman 13y ago
I'm another fan of odd time signatures, took me a few bars but I made it 13/X (feels more like /8 than /16 to me, but meh) I nailed it counting loops of 1234 1234 1234 1 I've noticed the place you're most likely to hear 'odd' time signatures (other than prog music) is in scores.
pygy_ 13y ago
It's not 13/16, or any other straight rational meter. Xx-Xx-Xx-0–0– The 0–0– section is half as long as Xx-Xx-Xx-. Akin to a polyrhythm, but serial rather than parallel.
whiddershins 13y ago
I kept hearing it in 7/4, so I put hi hats and snares in 4/4, 7/4, and 13/8 against the motive ... now what does everyone think? https://soundcloud.com/noisegroove/terminatortimesignatures https://soundcloud.com/noisegroove/terminatortimesignatures
coldtea 13y ago
Here's from my brother (classically trained orchestra musician and electronic music composer): I checked the cd version I have in cubase with a click track playing the accents: it's 13/8 (3+3+3+2+2), 194 bpm. You can hear the click being stable throughout, without any adjustments (ok, it might be .0x off due to slightly different midi timing from Cubase and his gear) - if this weren't the tempo/meter, it would drift a lot. The reason for the confusion is probably the sloppy/free live playing in some of the lines. I imagine he had a click track or some quantised line running (like the opening percussion), and played the rest live (even the percussion/string hits in the middle, that sound a bit rushed and sloppy). I think the whole 8ths/16ths etc about how the score should be are irrelevant in electronic music, unless you were to transcribe it for someone to play.
- bpaluzzi 13y ago
  I can't agree with that. 3+3+3+2+2 means that the first four notes are all evenly spaced. Tap the accent with your hand. The fourth note is delayed. The pattern is actually 3+3+4+2+2. 7/8. And the tempo is definitely faster than 194 - it's closer to 212. Are you sure your brother listened to the right track?
  - bpaluzzi 13y ago
    Actually, had another listen (and put it into a DAW). We're both wrong (but I'm more wrong). It's closer to 3+3+3.1+2+2. The groupings of 2 are delayed, but not by a full 16th note. So it's neither straight 7/8 nor straight 13/16, but a bit in between. Definitely much closer to the 13/16 others are saying, but with enough of a hesitation that a 16th note grid doesn't actually line up. 13.1/16? Times between notes: 1st accent to 2nd accent: 0.470 seconds 2nd accent to 3rd accent: 0.470 seconds 3rd accent to 4th accent: 0.500 seconds 4th accent to 5th accent: 0.313 seconds 5th accent to 6th accent: 0.306 seconds
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Well, it listened to this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwWYOE3Y9o&feature=kp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwWYOE3Y9o&feature=kp Are we talking about another?

138 points by jipumarino 13y ago

As a drummer I really like odd time signatures, for example the Pat Metheny Group song entitled "First Circle" is in 22/8... For fun, try memorizing and clapping the pattern at the opening of the piece. http://www.halfstepup.com/articles/odd-time-signatures-in-composition http://www.halfstepup.com/articles/odd-time-signatures-in-co... http://youtu.be/4YeoIn5-mSs http://youtu.be/4YeoIn5-mSs

daeken 13y ago
I'm also a big fan of odd time signatures, especially those that change. A great example of this is Dream Theater's "The Dance Of Eternity": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ftRhsvvfBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ftRhsvvfBw In ~6 minutes, there are 104 time signature changes, largely between 3/2, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 7/4. Another great one is Radiohead's "Pyramid Song": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbKQPqs-cqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbKQPqs-cqc It's in (3+3+4+3+3)/16 (depending on how you interpret it), and it's one of the hardest songs to count, as the last note is swung and deceptive. But it's a great composition.
- fractalsea 13y ago
  I remember Sale to the Moon, also by Radiohead, as being particularly strange. It changes from bar to bar.
  - plaguuuuuu 13y ago
    from memory, one beat gets chopped off the end each repetition, or something like that.
- psychometry 13y ago
  Pyramid Song is in 4/4. If you only listen to the piano part, then you might think it's odd, but when written in 4/4 the notes are just dotted quarter notes and half notes. The drum part is more revealing of the 4/4 time signature. http://cloud.freehandmusic.netdna-cdn.com/preview/530x4/warner/pyramsg.png http://cloud.freehandmusic.netdna-cdn.com/preview/530x4/warn...
  - daeken 13y ago
    This doesn't really follow, to me. If you count out the piano part, you get the groups of 3 pretty quickly, then the group of 4 that sits in the middle is immediately apparent. Counting the drums, to my ear, gives (5+4+4+3)/4, not 4/4. But admittedly, those could be counted differently. I definitely disagree completely that this song is in 4/4, though the exact groupings can be tough to determine.
    - psychometry 13y ago
      I assure you, it's in 4/4. I've transcribed and arranged this song myself. Also, that screenshot is from the official Amnesiac sheet music book.
camus2 13y ago
big fan of Tool drummer here so yeah, loving weird signatures.
- daeken 13y ago
  Most of Tool's most interesting drum parts (to me, at least) aren't really weird time signatures, just weird polyrhythms. The Grudge is a fun one.
stanleydrew 13y ago
Dave Brubeck's Time Out has some well-known examples of interesting time signatures. My favorite is Kathy's Waltz [1]. The second half of the song includes a section in which the drummer maintains a 3/4 waltz beat while Dave improvises over top, seamlessly moving between the 3/4 waltz and a 4/4 swing. I don't know of any other similar performances, but would be interested if anybody can recommend some. [1] https://play.spotify.com/track/6qNWmjlMAW503WLZLfjUba https://play.spotify.com/track/6qNWmjlMAW503WLZLfjUba [Edit] Having just listened to it a second time, it's actually more interesting. The drummer is playing a kind of 6/8 but using the hi-hat on every other beat. The bass player is placing notes on beats 1 and 4, and Paul Desmond and Dave are improvising on top. I'd be interested in others' assessment of what's happening in that second part of the song though.
NDizzle 13y ago
Drummer that likes odd time signatures? Here's some Zappa for you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6uXANvaK1I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6uXANvaK1I
plaguuuuuu 13y ago
that piece is pretty awesome. rather more difficult to figure out than the terminator theme with all the syncopation and what not. I've always loved odd time sigs. I recently got turned on to Indian classical tabla music, which is utterly ridiculous.. I'd say the gap in complexity vs the above is comparable to 22/8 vs 4/4.
yk_42 13y ago
First Circle is one of the best (and hardest) songs that my former jazz orchestra played - I was on drums. We used a score from UNC, I believe. You're right that the time signature is effectively 22/8. Our charts were written in 12/8+10/8 alternating (22 beats) but there were 4 bars of 12/8 and one of 8/8 at the end of the verses. I think the solo sections were mostly 12/8. The song works best if the whole band feels the accented rhythms, rather than explicitly counting everything. But when it comes together, it is a powerful piece of music.
philwelch 13y ago
The song "Hey Ya!" by Outkast is in 11/4 time. There's no shortage of prog rock and prog metal in unusual time signatures but for a catchy hit song to have such a quirky rhythm was unusual.
eCa 13y ago
This is pretty odd: http://youtube.com/watch?v=69md7aLuo2I http://youtube.com/watch?v=69md7aLuo2I (Pete Zeldman/Enigma)

Aardwolf 13y ago

If you would have one beat a few milliseconds off, would that turn your 6/8 into e.g. 619/824? There is no strict boundary between which streams of sound are music and which are not, so have fun analyzing whatever else will come up.

baddox 13y ago
If I were annotating it, I would use some ad hoc notation. I would probably just say 13/16 with a note to add a quarter beat (or something like that) to the end of each measure. Another option might be decimal signatures, like 13.25/16.

crazygringo 13y ago

Fascinating. I think it's particularly tricky because I'd argue it's not 13/16, but rather 6.5/8, in terms of where we intuively feel the beats. (Like the traditional difference between 4/4 and 2/2.) But fractional top numbers in the time signature basically don't exist -- this is the first time I've come across something that feels like that -- hence why it's so hard to pin down.

mzarate06 13y ago
Hmm, so you don't hear 7/8? Maybe I'm off, but do you hear the repeating percussion pattern on these notes (-- means an eighth rest)? 1 & -- & 3 -- 4 & -- -- 6 7 I hear that through the entire track, and counting with 7/8 has each new bar starting nicely on the first eighth note. My vote is 7/8.
- cperciva 13y ago
  It's definitely 1 (2) . 4 (5) . 7 (8) . 10 . 12 . where 1, 4, 7, 10, and 12 are strong notes, (2), (5), and (8) are weak notes, and the others are rests. Try counting "1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 2" and you'll find that it fits perfectly.
  - mzarate06 13y ago
    Ah yes, you're right. Thank you, great way of explaining it.
  - maroonblazer 13y ago
    "1 (2) . 4 (5) . 7 (8) . 10 . 12 ." isn't a time signature. It's 7/8.
    - cperciva 13y ago
      Of course that isn't a time signature. It's a listing of where the loud notes, quiet notes, and rests line up in the bar.
    - baddox 13y ago

wmij 13y ago

It sounds and feels like 7/8 to me. So it's 13/16, cool stuff! I have a clock at home that plays the Big Ben Westminster Chimes in 5/4 time. Once I figured out it played in 5/4, I think of "5" now every time I hear it. There is a definite art to creating melodies that feel good in odd time signatures.

cperciva 13y ago

As a classical musician it took me about three bars of audio to figure out that this was 3+3+3+2+2. I'd call it 13/8 rather than the 13/16 which the article suggests, but that's mostly a non-difference.

plaguuuuuu 13y ago
Drummer here.. Edited to rephrase this as a question as I'm not so sure any more :p If it were 13/8, wouldn't each bar would comprise two 'patterns' (forgot the correct term) with the second beginning halfway between beats 6 and 7? IMO makes less sense than it beginning at the start of a bar of 13/16.
- cperciva 13y ago
  It depends whether the notes we're hearing are 8th notes or 16th notes. Given the style I'd say that they're fast 8ths rather than slow 16ths.
  - kisielk 13y ago
    I think another article (perhaps on Synthopia) stated the tempo was 190 bpm or thereabouts, so definitely 8ths.
baddox 13y ago
It would be relatively simple to plot steady subdivisions on the waveform and measure things closely. I don't have the software to do that right now, but I'm curious. It's definitely not exactly 13/16 (13 sixteenth notes), and definitely not exactly 7/8 (14 sixteenth notes), but it does feel closer to the former.

mzarate06 13y ago

I hear 7/8 all the way through. Because I can't remember how to phrase an up beat in an */8 time signature, think in terms of 7/4 for a moment. You can clearly hear the repeating percussion pattern on these notes throughout the entire track: 1 & [rest on 2] & 3 4 & [rest on 5] 6 7 I distinctly hear 7 downbeats each bar.

rileyjshaw 13y ago
Very close. The first beat comes in a little bit too soon to be 7/8... try tapping it out and you'll notice. Tapping with your first two taps on the first two drum hits will get you the right tempo. The reason that it can sound so close to 7/8 is because 7/8 = 14/16, which is only one sixteenth off of 13/16.
- mzarate06 13y ago
  > The first beat comes in a little bit too soon to be 7/8 Are you referring to the opening note of the track? I'd argue that's a pickup note. Edit: Either way, I just tapped out to 13/16 and see how that fits perfectly. Thanks for explaining.
  - baddox 13y ago
    13/16 still isn't perfect. There is something like an extra quarter beat every measure, as in 13.25/16. Of course, that makes it closer to 13/16 than 7/8.

gooseyard 13y ago

Check out Ben Monder's "Rooms of Light" for a really brain-bending bit of counting.

skuunk1 13y ago

This one starts off in 17/16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFoYsqVqDcU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFoYsqVqDcU Hells Bells by Bill Bruford

deleted 13y ago
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plaguuuuuu 13y ago
Also I think the first bit in Biblical Violence by Hella is 17/16. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7S-RhlG1bk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7S-RhlG1bk and this is apparently a transcription of one of the following parts in some sort of drumming tablature H |------|----|--------|----|---X--|----|--------|----|---X--|----|----------| t |o-----|o---|o---o---|o---|o-----|o---|o---o---|o---|o-----|o---|o---o---o-| S |-ooo--|--O-|-o---O--|--O-|-oooo-|--O-|-o---O--|--O-|-oo--o|--O-|-o---O----| B |o-oo-o|o---|o-oo---o|o---|o-oo-o|o---|o-oo---o|o---|o-oo-o|o---|o-oo---oo-| Hf|----x-|----|--------|-x--|----x-|----|--------|-x--|----x-|----|----------| ___1tl2tl|1 2 |1tl2tl3 |1 2 |1tl2tl|1 2 |1tl2tl3 |1 2 |1tl2tl|1 2 |1tl2tl3 4 | C |X----------|------|-----------|------|-----------|------|-----------|----X-| H |---X-------|------|---X-------|------|---X-------|------|---X-------|------| t |-------o---|o-----|o------o---|o-----|o------o---|o-----|o---oo-o---|o-----| S |-oo-ooo--O-|-o--O-|-oo-ooo--O-|-o--O-|-oo-ooo--O-|-o--O-|-oo---o--O-|-o--O-| B |o--o--oo---|o-oo--|o-oo--oo---|o-oo--|o-oo--oo---|o-oo--|o-oo--oo---|o-oo--| Hf|----x------|------|----x------|------|----x------|------|----x------|------| ___1tl2tl3tl4 |1 2 3 |1tl2tl3tl4 |1 2 3 |1tl2tl3tl4 |1 2 3 |1tl2tl3tl4 |1 2 3 | w.t.f.
scottjackson 13y ago
Pretty sure "Hell's Bells" starts/finishes in 19/16. A group of 7, a group of 7, then a group of 5.
skuunk1 13y ago
Whoops looks like I meant 19/16. Hard to count that fast...

kens 13y ago

It seems to me that time signatures assume a particular model of musical structure that doesn't apply to this score. According to the article, the sequence was looped a little short of a complete measure. So there's no reason to expect a rational time signature. It's kind of like creating music that repeats every π (pi) beats, and people arguing if the time signature is 25/8 or 22/7. (Actually that might be an interesting piece of music.)

ghayes 13y ago
On the latter part, you might want to check out Wikipedia's list of musical works in unusual time signatures[0], which includes: > "[Study] No. 40" for two non-synchronized pianos, version for player piano (punching score) by Conlon Nancarrow contains the mathematical constant e beats of pi. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusua...
baddox 13y ago
Along those lines, here's an interesting video of a drummer playing various looping samples of dialogue from movies or TV and finding a bizarre time signature that is a "close enough" fit. http://youtu.be/MHft4OR7Rus http://youtu.be/MHft4OR7Rus

leephillips 13y ago

Since we're comparing music with weird time signatures: Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, "Promenade" section, he wrote in 11/4 time, but it's usually published as alternating 5/4 and 6/4 because, presumably, performers find that less strange. Mussorgsky is notorious for having spent most of his life in a drunken stupor, including, or perhaps especially, when composing.

cperciva 13y ago
he wrote in 11/4 time, but it's usually published as alternating 5/4 and 6/4 because, presumably, performers find that less strange Oh god. I hate it when editors do this. I can't think of any musicians who find this any easier -- quiet the contrary. I think this practice originated in the early days of typeset music, when there were letter blocks available for 5/4 and 6/4 but not for 11/4. Whichever way it's printed, we just pencil "3 + 2 + 3 + 3" into our parts anyway...
rootbear 13y ago
The story I heard is that Mossorgsky wrote it that way because he walked with a limp. He wrote his limp into the time signature. This is probably an urban myth, as I can't seem to find any verification of it on line in a quick search.

teddyh 13y ago

From the article: > “DAH-doonk, dah-doonk, dah-doonk, gonk gonk.” That would actually be the Terminator 2 soundtrack. The soundtrack from The Terminator would go “DAH-doonk, doonk, dah-doonk, gonk gonk.”; i.e. 2-1-2-2 instead of 2-2-2-2. (Yes, this annoyed me back when Terminator 2 came out. Why, yes, I am old.)

nzp 13y ago
Isn't it the other way around? Terminator 2[0] is 2-1-2-2, and Terminator is 2-2-2-2. [0] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhWs3DVk-FU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhWs3DVk-FU
- teddyh 13y ago
  Hey, wow, you’re right — I totally mixed them up. Now I feel silly.
  - nzp 13y ago
    Haha, don't. I would never notice that there's a difference if you had not pointed it out. :)

tunesmith 13y ago

Usually it's simple to just count in groups of three and two (or four). This is three threes and a four, so, thirteen. If you want to drill yourself on a bunch of different examples of this - 11, 13, 17, whatever - go listen to Balkan folk music.

andybak 13y ago
Don Ellis had a Bulgarian pianist (Milcho Leviev) in his Orchestra for a while and this was one of the glorious outcomes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUYtWvavvYg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUYtWvavvYg Here's a great blog that used to have regular posts on matters regarding peculiar meters: http://oddtimeobsessed.blogspot.co.uk/ http://oddtimeobsessed.blogspot.co.uk/

aaronsnoswell 13y ago

Time signatures are extrinsic to a piece of music; a 3/4 piece can be also be written as a x/y piece, it will just be confusing for the musicians to follow.

moondowner 13y ago

More goodies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusu...

pdkl95 13y ago

Obviously, it's a straight 4/4 ("Common Time")[0], with some swing and played tempo rubato ("robbed time")[1]. This is where the time allocated for the various beats is pushed around a bit by the performer to add character or emotional qualities. Very often, when the phrase "..with feeling!" is really speaking about rubato (or conversely, any "mechanical" quality a performance may have). "Stop playing it like a robot; now stat again, with feeling this time!" So many people have a hard time picking out the meter, because they are still using an incorrect assumption: that time (meter/tempo/beats/etc) in music is regular/consistent - or even well-defined in the first place. The important part to remember, when speaking of time-signatures, meter, and music theory in general, is that what's written (or even what was intended by a composer) is only a guide. They've drawn a model on the page, that is intended to help express how you go about playing a song, but just as "the map is not the territory", a quarter-note is not necessarily 1/4 of a measure in time[2]. This used to be more explicit in the Baroque era: you would see very simple notation on the page, and the performer was supposed to infer (and ad-lib their own) "embellishments" or "ornaments"[3] as they played. This doesn't apply to all music, and some songs would not work without their strict, mechanical interpretation of meter. Of particular note is "martial music"[4], which is often quite regular/low-rubato, and the Terminator theme has some march-like qualities such as its iconic sharp-beats. Martial music could be appropriate for Terminator's subject matter, too. Instead, we get a really-modern[5] song that was likely performed directly, skipping the sheet music step entirely. That's the thing about music; you can't really shove it all in to nice, neat pidgen-holes, and if you could, some artist would just go and write a song that broke everything, for the lulz. As the article mentions a Prophet-10, you also have to take into the considerations of the hardware involved, and how that influences everything, in large and/or subtle ways. If you're interested in the topic of how hardware and creativity are intertwined, LFT (Linus Akesson) gave a very interesting talk on the subject: "Poems for bugs"[6]. [0] There are other acceptable interpretations, of course, but that makes no difference. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_rubato http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_rubato [2] Also measures/bars don't necessarily have the same time either, and the frequency of a note (on instruments that allow it) can vary as well. [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_%28music%29#Western_classical_music http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_%28music%29#Western_cl... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_music http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_music [5] "Is it modern?" ~Emperor Joseph II, in Amadeus [6] http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/poems-for-bugs/index.php http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/poems-for-bugs/index...

Nux 13y ago

Terminator Score (everybody talks about it, nobody links it, wtf) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6o1ipWtHig http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6o1ipWtHig

MattBearman 13y ago

I'm another fan of odd time signatures, took me a few bars but I made it 13/X (feels more like /8 than /16 to me, but meh) I nailed it counting loops of 1234 1234 1234 1 I've noticed the place you're most likely to hear 'odd' time signatures (other than prog music) is in scores.

pygy_ 13y ago

It's not 13/16, or any other straight rational meter. Xx-Xx-Xx-0–0– The 0–0– section is half as long as Xx-Xx-Xx-. Akin to a polyrhythm, but serial rather than parallel.

whiddershins 13y ago

I kept hearing it in 7/4, so I put hi hats and snares in 4/4, 7/4, and 13/8 against the motive ... now what does everyone think? https://soundcloud.com/noisegroove/terminatortimesignatures https://soundcloud.com/noisegroove/terminatortimesignatures

coldtea 13y ago

Here's from my brother (classically trained orchestra musician and electronic music composer): I checked the cd version I have in cubase with a click track playing the accents: it's 13/8 (3+3+3+2+2), 194 bpm. You can hear the click being stable throughout, without any adjustments (ok, it might be .0x off due to slightly different midi timing from Cubase and his gear) - if this weren't the tempo/meter, it would drift a lot. The reason for the confusion is probably the sloppy/free live playing in some of the lines. I imagine he had a click track or some quantised line running (like the opening percussion), and played the rest live (even the percussion/string hits in the middle, that sound a bit rushed and sloppy). I think the whole 8ths/16ths etc about how the score should be are irrelevant in electronic music, unless you were to transcribe it for someone to play.

bpaluzzi 13y ago
I can't agree with that. 3+3+3+2+2 means that the first four notes are all evenly spaced. Tap the accent with your hand. The fourth note is delayed. The pattern is actually 3+3+4+2+2. 7/8. And the tempo is definitely faster than 194 - it's closer to 212. Are you sure your brother listened to the right track?
- bpaluzzi 13y ago
  Actually, had another listen (and put it into a DAW). We're both wrong (but I'm more wrong). It's closer to 3+3+3.1+2+2. The groupings of 2 are delayed, but not by a full 16th note. So it's neither straight 7/8 nor straight 13/16, but a bit in between. Definitely much closer to the 13/16 others are saying, but with enough of a hesitation that a 16th note grid doesn't actually line up. 13.1/16? Times between notes: 1st accent to 2nd accent: 0.470 seconds 2nd accent to 3rd accent: 0.470 seconds 3rd accent to 4th accent: 0.500 seconds 4th accent to 5th accent: 0.313 seconds 5th accent to 6th accent: 0.306 seconds
- coldtea 13y ago
  Well, it listened to this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwWYOE3Y9o&feature=kp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwWYOE3Y9o&feature=kp Are we talking about another?