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> If they do something great... the response will be "Meh". I still think that there are too many externally motivated people going into science, rather than t

> If they do something great... the response will be "Meh". I still think that there are too many externally motivated people going into science, rather than too few.

BrentRitterbeck 17y ago
By "externally motivated", do you mean money?
- asciilifeform 17y ago
  Money, honors, influence - anything contingent on impressing an audience. An externally motivated person is capable of doing good science, given the right incentives. However, the way science is funded in most of the world today provides incentives for showmanship, rather than results. This trend has already destroyed physics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465092756 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465092756) and computer science (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-wrong-with-cs-research.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-w...) as respectable, intellectually honest fields. Internally motivated people, driven purely by a love of their field's conceptual beauty, are invulnerable to having their goal system perverted by such systemic rot.
  - zackattack 17y ago
    Physics hasn't been destroyed. I love your passion but your claims are sensationalist. I looked at the reviews of the book, and apparently it's about how particle physicists are headed in the wrong direction. Oh no.
    - asciilifeform 17y ago
      > it's about how particle physicists are headed in the wrong direction. Oh no. "Wrong," as the book's title suggests, is not a strong enough word. The string theorists have proclaimed that we should no longer require a model of reality to make testable predictions. This should not be confused with an honest mistake, and the fact that a majority of the field's participants are in on the fraud is no excuse (when you lie for money, it is reasonable to call it fraud, whether or not the deed fits the narrow bounds of any legal definitions.) Physics has been Lysenkoized.
zackattack 17y ago
I fail to see how this is any kind of problem whatsoever, unless the externally motivated people impede the internally motivated people in such a way that negative progress is made.
- asciilifeform 17y ago
  > unless the externally motivated people impede the internally motivated people in such a way that negative progress is made Is it not obvious to you that this must be the case? Every scientific field (and the set of professional researchers as a whole, I dare say) has a prevailing culture, like any other community. A scientific culture which rewards grantsmanship, bootlicking, and smoke-and-mirrors tricks is necessarily hostile to anyone who is genuinely devoted to advancing science.
  - blasdel 17y ago
    I was going to congratulate you on the biting neologism, but a depressing search revealed 'grantsmanship' to be a whole field of study :(
  - zackattack 17y ago
    I challenge you to suggest a better system.
    - asciilifeform 17y ago
      Bring back Bell Labs, Xerox PARC, and their ilk. No grantsmanship, just buildings full of smart people working on whatever they like. That was the system which yielded the foundations for just about every technology you enjoy today.
      - zackattack 17y ago
        Bell Labs pretty much won the Netflix prize

> If they do something great... the response will be "Meh". I still think that there are too many externally motivated people going into science, rather than too few.

BrentRitterbeck 17y ago

By "externally motivated", do you mean money?

asciilifeform 17y ago
Money, honors, influence - anything contingent on impressing an audience. An externally motivated person is capable of doing good science, given the right incentives. However, the way science is funded in most of the world today provides incentives for showmanship, rather than results. This trend has already destroyed physics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465092756 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465092756) and computer science (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-wrong-with-cs-research.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-w...) as respectable, intellectually honest fields. Internally motivated people, driven purely by a love of their field's conceptual beauty, are invulnerable to having their goal system perverted by such systemic rot.
- zackattack 17y ago
  Physics hasn't been destroyed. I love your passion but your claims are sensationalist. I looked at the reviews of the book, and apparently it's about how particle physicists are headed in the wrong direction. Oh no.
  - asciilifeform 17y ago
    > it's about how particle physicists are headed in the wrong direction. Oh no. "Wrong," as the book's title suggests, is not a strong enough word. The string theorists have proclaimed that we should no longer require a model of reality to make testable predictions. This should not be confused with an honest mistake, and the fact that a majority of the field's participants are in on the fraud is no excuse (when you lie for money, it is reasonable to call it fraud, whether or not the deed fits the narrow bounds of any legal definitions.) Physics has been Lysenkoized.

zackattack 17y ago

I fail to see how this is any kind of problem whatsoever, unless the externally motivated people impede the internally motivated people in such a way that negative progress is made.

asciilifeform 17y ago
> unless the externally motivated people impede the internally motivated people in such a way that negative progress is made Is it not obvious to you that this must be the case? Every scientific field (and the set of professional researchers as a whole, I dare say) has a prevailing culture, like any other community. A scientific culture which rewards grantsmanship, bootlicking, and smoke-and-mirrors tricks is necessarily hostile to anyone who is genuinely devoted to advancing science.
- blasdel 17y ago
  I was going to congratulate you on the biting neologism, but a depressing search revealed 'grantsmanship' to be a whole field of study :(
- zackattack 17y ago
  I challenge you to suggest a better system.
  - asciilifeform 17y ago
    Bring back Bell Labs, Xerox PARC, and their ilk. No grantsmanship, just buildings full of smart people working on whatever they like. That was the system which yielded the foundations for just about every technology you enjoy today.
    - zackattack 17y ago
      Bell Labs pretty much won the Netflix prize