4 ms·

for anyone clicking around like me searching for the code, and more description on the bird name(assuming it's some mozilla thing), it is[1] (and the repo [2])

for anyone clicking around like me searching for the code, and more description on the bird name(assuming it's some mozilla thing), it is[1] (and the repo [2]) i was assuming this would be some sort of xulrunner app(for some reason a non native chat client strikes me odd for some reason, but meh). it's actually an old seamonkey "fork" from what i gather, but i'm not sure if that's still the case. can someone comment on why a browser is more desirable? i'm guessing it's, because of random bugs appearing where dns or other things may be leaked, and crossplatform support.[3] i'm starting to think that the "right"(there i said it) way to deal with all this is if we follow with the portal approach[4](someone had a debian version, feel free to post the link). but instead of running portal on a seperate device it'll be a container in a container(or light vm). that way the outer container(vm) is the sandbox(portal), then you can run whatever app you want. and yes, i really what i propose is a major pain in the ass to setup, and won't work in windows that well, but meh i don't see why we couldn't make it easier. the main issue in my opinion would really be the privileges it might need. [1]: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:related_links#Things_for_developers https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:related_links#Thing... [2]: https://hg.instantbird.org/ https://hg.instantbird.org/ [3]: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/1676 https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/1676 [4]: https://github.com/grugq/PORTALofPi https://github.com/grugq/PORTALofPi

girvo 13y ago
To be fair, Xulrunner can end up being so close to native it barely matters: Komodo is a great example. Sure parts are definitely not native widgets, but they look close enough and allow for customisation that'd be very difficult otherwise :)
grugq 13y ago
Theres a good reason the PORTAL is a separate hardware device: security [1]. There is also a reason it isn't on Debian -- huge attack surface as there [were?] are no minimal Debian images. If you want something similar, the transparent Tor proxy, then possibly OnionPi [2] is for you. The setup that you describe is actually implemented in Whonix [3], and personally I don't like it that much. I don't believe that VMs are very secure. I prefer the TAILS [4] system for a hardened Linux as a baseline, but it doesn't even use a VM to segregate the Tor daemon from the main OS. A superior hardened system (from a security POV) is Liberte Linux [5], however development is stalled and it is more complex to setup and use than TAILS. (Worth noting that TAILS is sponsored and has development resources, everything else is just a side project for various people). If you want to setup a PORTAL that runs in a vm, it is really simple to do. QEMU will run the OpenWRT based PORTAL image, although someone would have to figure out how to configure the network settings appropriately. You'll probably want to use a VM for the "workstation" environment, as well as a VM for the Tor daemon. This will give you maximum control over the networking (this is what Whonix does). At any rate, I suspect that JITSI is a better client than pidgin, but it gets no love (and unfortunately, it is Java). pidgin is basically technical debt which can never be repaid. Parsing network protocols in ad hoc parsers written in C is just not rational in this day and age. A client should use a managed language to minimise memory corruption bugs. I don't think using xulrunner is a good idea either, given how terrible Firefox is at security. Ideally, there would be work put into making Pond [6] a viable instant message application. I'd also be happy if the OTR spec was updated to bring it inline with the new TextSecure v2 protocol. [1]: http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/10/05/thru-a-portal-darkly/ http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/10/05/thru-a-portal-darkly/ [2]: http://learn.adafruit.com/onion-pi/overview http://learn.adafruit.com/onion-pi/overview [3]: https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Main_Page https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Main_Page [4]: https://tails.boum.org/ https://tails.boum.org/ [5]: http://dee.su/liberte http://dee.su/liberte [6]: https://pond.imperialviolet.org/ https://pond.imperialviolet.org/
- autodidakto 13y ago
  I got a few comments since I love your blogs and opinion. I work on Whonix and am excited that you're commenting on it. A minimum Debian is grml [1], 150-350MB, which Whonix uses as a base. But by the time we're done adding packages and KDE, it's not minimal anymore. We use a popular GNU/Linux distro (instead of, say, hardened gentoo) because 1) Lots of eyes on a bigger project is more secure than few eyes on a smaller project, and 2) Bad or missing usability/UX hurts security: these systems are used by journalists and dissidents, not the Unix and computer security trained. The trick is making a system that moderately educated users can get work done on, without letting them shoot themselves in the foot. VMs have their problems, but VirtualBox inside an average Windows install is harder to exploit than an average Windows install alone. Whonix can also run on dedicated hardware or inside a dedicated/minimal/portable host OS. Running inside QubesOS, the Xen-based (everything is isolated) security focused desktop OS, is a mid-term goal. Additionally, as resources (that is, volunteers) grow, builds of Whonix based on other distros/desktops/hardware will appear. To see you post on our forum [2] or github issues [3], lending your experience with PORTAL, would be a dream! Let's talk stream isolation. Or just voice your concerns and we'll try to defend our choices. --- Ditto on Pond, which is weird since Appelbaum is behind it, but apparently they don't want to start from scratch (Pond was just a README last time I checked). I have big hopes for TIMB, BitMessage, and the new (crossplatform) TextSecure. Hopefully redphone will receive the same treatment as TextSecure. Me and the lead Whonix developer tried to set up a crossplatform secure voice chat over Jitsi... an hour later we gave up. Icebird + TorBirdy is just barely becoming a reality. A GPG capable email client that doesn't give away your time zone is big news in this world. Don't get me started on losing all your bookmarks when you update the tor browser bundle! We got a long way to go. [1]: https://grml.org/ https://grml.org/ [2]: https://www.whonix.org/forum/index.php?board=5.0 https://www.whonix.org/forum/index.php?board=5.0 [3]: https://github.com/Whonix/Whonix/issues https://github.com/Whonix/Whonix/issues
  - grugq 13y ago
    I should have been more clear, I mean a minimal Debian install for RaspberryPi. I don't want to create a full debootstrap image and make that available (it comes to almost 512mb after adding all the software, WTF!). I am familiar with grml. A hardened Gentoo is a more solid platform because of the reliability of GRsec + PaX for exploit mitigation. Unfortunately, configuring GRsec to work generically for a large number of usecases would be time consuming. I would still like to see it though. There is an option on how to do it properly, but so far I don't believe that anyone is working on making it available publicly. I know it has been done in private at least twice but neither implementation is likely to become public. I would very much like it to be public. :( If you are interested, it is a viable business, but I personally don't have the time to put into it. I really don't like VirtualBox. I think Xen, KVM, VMware are all superior options. I have never been able to get Qubes to install on any of my computers. It just fails. I guess I have the wrong hardware. I think it is sort of the correct approach, but there is a much better way. Email me if you want to devote some time to "doing it right". Would be in line with Whonix/Qubes, but different. :)
mook 13y ago
Actually, they're in the middle of landing in Mozilla's repository [1], and as of last week some time they haven't gotten their nightly builds back up yet. It lives in comm-central, though, along with Thunderbird/Seamonkey and not Firefox (/Gonk/etc). I have no actual knowledge of why Tor picked Instantbird over Pidgin; idle speculation says they're already stuck with Firefox anyway (TBB), so the additional risk from JavaScript-based instant messaging protocols isn't high. I do not believe Instantbird supports DNS SRV at all at this point, and it just uses the same infrastructure Mozilla uses for browsing to make connections, so presumably that's already safe. (Bias warning: I hang out in Instantbird's IRC channel and have made a patch or two. I don't think any of the above would change otherwise, though.) [1] https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/file/tip/im https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/file/tip/im

girvo 13y ago

To be fair, Xulrunner can end up being so close to native it barely matters: Komodo is a great example. Sure parts are definitely not native widgets, but they look close enough and allow for customisation that'd be very difficult otherwise :)

grugq 13y ago

Theres a good reason the PORTAL is a separate hardware device: security [1]. There is also a reason it isn't on Debian -- huge attack surface as there [were?] are no minimal Debian images. If you want something similar, the transparent Tor proxy, then possibly OnionPi [2] is for you. The setup that you describe is actually implemented in Whonix [3], and personally I don't like it that much. I don't believe that VMs are very secure. I prefer the TAILS [4] system for a hardened Linux as a baseline, but it doesn't even use a VM to segregate the Tor daemon from the main OS. A superior hardened system (from a security POV) is Liberte Linux [5], however development is stalled and it is more complex to setup and use than TAILS. (Worth noting that TAILS is sponsored and has development resources, everything else is just a side project for various people). If you want to setup a PORTAL that runs in a vm, it is really simple to do. QEMU will run the OpenWRT based PORTAL image, although someone would have to figure out how to configure the network settings appropriately. You'll probably want to use a VM for the "workstation" environment, as well as a VM for the Tor daemon. This will give you maximum control over the networking (this is what Whonix does). At any rate, I suspect that JITSI is a better client than pidgin, but it gets no love (and unfortunately, it is Java). pidgin is basically technical debt which can never be repaid. Parsing network protocols in ad hoc parsers written in C is just not rational in this day and age. A client should use a managed language to minimise memory corruption bugs. I don't think using xulrunner is a good idea either, given how terrible Firefox is at security. Ideally, there would be work put into making Pond [6] a viable instant message application. I'd also be happy if the OTR spec was updated to bring it inline with the new TextSecure v2 protocol. [1]: http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/10/05/thru-a-portal-darkly/ http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/10/05/thru-a-portal-darkly/ [2]: http://learn.adafruit.com/onion-pi/overview http://learn.adafruit.com/onion-pi/overview [3]: https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Main_Page https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Main_Page [4]: https://tails.boum.org/ https://tails.boum.org/ [5]: http://dee.su/liberte http://dee.su/liberte [6]: https://pond.imperialviolet.org/ https://pond.imperialviolet.org/

autodidakto 13y ago
I got a few comments since I love your blogs and opinion. I work on Whonix and am excited that you're commenting on it. A minimum Debian is grml [1], 150-350MB, which Whonix uses as a base. But by the time we're done adding packages and KDE, it's not minimal anymore. We use a popular GNU/Linux distro (instead of, say, hardened gentoo) because 1) Lots of eyes on a bigger project is more secure than few eyes on a smaller project, and 2) Bad or missing usability/UX hurts security: these systems are used by journalists and dissidents, not the Unix and computer security trained. The trick is making a system that moderately educated users can get work done on, without letting them shoot themselves in the foot. VMs have their problems, but VirtualBox inside an average Windows install is harder to exploit than an average Windows install alone. Whonix can also run on dedicated hardware or inside a dedicated/minimal/portable host OS. Running inside QubesOS, the Xen-based (everything is isolated) security focused desktop OS, is a mid-term goal. Additionally, as resources (that is, volunteers) grow, builds of Whonix based on other distros/desktops/hardware will appear. To see you post on our forum [2] or github issues [3], lending your experience with PORTAL, would be a dream! Let's talk stream isolation. Or just voice your concerns and we'll try to defend our choices. --- Ditto on Pond, which is weird since Appelbaum is behind it, but apparently they don't want to start from scratch (Pond was just a README last time I checked). I have big hopes for TIMB, BitMessage, and the new (crossplatform) TextSecure. Hopefully redphone will receive the same treatment as TextSecure. Me and the lead Whonix developer tried to set up a crossplatform secure voice chat over Jitsi... an hour later we gave up. Icebird + TorBirdy is just barely becoming a reality. A GPG capable email client that doesn't give away your time zone is big news in this world. Don't get me started on losing all your bookmarks when you update the tor browser bundle! We got a long way to go. [1]: https://grml.org/ https://grml.org/ [2]: https://www.whonix.org/forum/index.php?board=5.0 https://www.whonix.org/forum/index.php?board=5.0 [3]: https://github.com/Whonix/Whonix/issues https://github.com/Whonix/Whonix/issues
- grugq 13y ago
  I should have been more clear, I mean a minimal Debian install for RaspberryPi. I don't want to create a full debootstrap image and make that available (it comes to almost 512mb after adding all the software, WTF!). I am familiar with grml. A hardened Gentoo is a more solid platform because of the reliability of GRsec + PaX for exploit mitigation. Unfortunately, configuring GRsec to work generically for a large number of usecases would be time consuming. I would still like to see it though. There is an option on how to do it properly, but so far I don't believe that anyone is working on making it available publicly. I know it has been done in private at least twice but neither implementation is likely to become public. I would very much like it to be public. :( If you are interested, it is a viable business, but I personally don't have the time to put into it. I really don't like VirtualBox. I think Xen, KVM, VMware are all superior options. I have never been able to get Qubes to install on any of my computers. It just fails. I guess I have the wrong hardware. I think it is sort of the correct approach, but there is a much better way. Email me if you want to devote some time to "doing it right". Would be in line with Whonix/Qubes, but different. :)

mook 13y ago

Actually, they're in the middle of landing in Mozilla's repository [1], and as of last week some time they haven't gotten their nightly builds back up yet. It lives in comm-central, though, along with Thunderbird/Seamonkey and not Firefox (/Gonk/etc). I have no actual knowledge of why Tor picked Instantbird over Pidgin; idle speculation says they're already stuck with Firefox anyway (TBB), so the additional risk from JavaScript-based instant messaging protocols isn't high. I do not believe Instantbird supports DNS SRV at all at this point, and it just uses the same infrastructure Mozilla uses for browsing to make connections, so presumably that's already safe. (Bias warning: I hang out in Instantbird's IRC channel and have made a patch or two. I don't think any of the above would change otherwise, though.) [1] https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/file/tip/im https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/file/tip/im