11 ms·

> I would think that the willingness to suffer or die because of your beliefs is a reasonable piece of evidence that the beliefs are genuine. Surely you didn't

by lutusp 13y ago

> I would think that the willingness to suffer or die because of your beliefs is a reasonable piece of evidence that the beliefs are genuine. Surely you didn't mean to say "genuine", assuming you understand the meaning of the word. You may have meant "sincere". But "genuine" implies that the belief is true, which is a property not necessary for a belief to be sincerely held, and that contradicts the meaning of "belief" as a view held without regard for the evidence.

baddox 13y ago
In my sentence, "genuine" modifies "belief," not the thing that is believed. I believe this is common English usage. "Genuine belief" is a common phrase with the meaning I intended, as in "I hope you don't genuinely believe that."
- lutusp 13y ago
  This doesn't change how the original reads -- as granting credence to the belief, rather than the holding of the belief.
  - baddox 13y ago
    I don't think that's a reasonable reading of my comment. My phrasing matches standard English usage.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      All I am saying is that, in English, to avoid confusing people about your meaning, you're much better off saying "sincere belief". > My phrasing matches standard English usage. So does saying "literally" when you mean figuratively -- all the dictionaries now list this perversion, but it's still inadvisable and still sows confusion among educated readers. It's one thing to argue that a usage is accepted by lexicographers, but quite another to try to engage in effective communications.
      - baddox 13y ago
        > So does saying "literally" when you mean figuratively -- all the dictionaries now list this perversion, but it's still inadvisable and still sows confusion among educated readers. No, that's not advisable. Just like I'm using "genuine" correctly (it has meant "authentic" at least as far back as the 17th century), "literally" can also be correctly used to mean "figuratively." Simply put: you are not the authoritative body of the English language.
        lutusp 13y ago
        > I'm using "genuine" correctly (it has meant "authentic" at least as far back as the 17th century) ... Yes, you did use it correctly, but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it. > Simply put: you are not the authoritative body of the English language. Point to any of my words that give you that idea. Can't do that? My point is not correct usage, it is effective communication. With respect to that, there are no authorities except the outcome.
        baddox 13y ago
        > but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it. That's been my point this entire time. You appear to be the only reader who was confused, and it seems to be due to some rather bizarre ideas you have about the English language. I am confident that my original comment would serve as effective communication to the overwhelming majority of native English speakers. The intended audience of my comment did not include advocates of prescriptive linguistics, which is fine, because vanishingly few of those exist, and the ones who do spend most of their time attempting to argue that everyone else doesn't know how to effectively communicate.
        lutusp 13y ago
        >> but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it. > That's been my point this entire time. Yes, I know, and rather than take the advice of someone with six decades of English writing experience, you chose to defend a questionable word choice as thought it was self-evident. > You appear to be the only reader who was confused ... How very scientific. Has it occurred to you that I am also the only reader? In any case, this is easily resolved by polling common usage: Google: "Sincere belief": 207,000 uses, "Genuine belief": 137,000 uses. And looking more carefully, one finds that many of the "genuine belief" citations are meant to refer to a belief in something thought to be true. Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw, in which this remark appears in the comments: "How could a belief that contradicts available information be a genuine belief?" > and the ones who do spend most of their time attempting to argue that everyone else doesn't know how to effectively communicate. To the degree that I do this at all, I reserve my efforts for examples in which ... wait for it ... someone clearly doesn't know how to effectively communicate.

by lutusp 13y ago

baddox 13y ago

In my sentence, "genuine" modifies "belief," not the thing that is believed. I believe this is common English usage. "Genuine belief" is a common phrase with the meaning I intended, as in "I hope you don't genuinely believe that."

lutusp 13y ago
This doesn't change how the original reads -- as granting credence to the belief, rather than the holding of the belief.
- baddox 13y ago
  I don't think that's a reasonable reading of my comment. My phrasing matches standard English usage.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    All I am saying is that, in English, to avoid confusing people about your meaning, you're much better off saying "sincere belief". > My phrasing matches standard English usage. So does saying "literally" when you mean figuratively -- all the dictionaries now list this perversion, but it's still inadvisable and still sows confusion among educated readers. It's one thing to argue that a usage is accepted by lexicographers, but quite another to try to engage in effective communications.
    - baddox 13y ago
      > So does saying "literally" when you mean figuratively -- all the dictionaries now list this perversion, but it's still inadvisable and still sows confusion among educated readers. No, that's not advisable. Just like I'm using "genuine" correctly (it has meant "authentic" at least as far back as the 17th century), "literally" can also be correctly used to mean "figuratively." Simply put: you are not the authoritative body of the English language.
      - lutusp 13y ago
        > I'm using "genuine" correctly (it has meant "authentic" at least as far back as the 17th century) ... Yes, you did use it correctly, but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it. > Simply put: you are not the authoritative body of the English language. Point to any of my words that give you that idea. Can't do that? My point is not correct usage, it is effective communication. With respect to that, there are no authorities except the outcome.
        baddox 13y ago
        > but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it. That's been my point this entire time. You appear to be the only reader who was confused, and it seems to be due to some rather bizarre ideas you have about the English language. I am confident that my original comment would serve as effective communication to the overwhelming majority of native English speakers. The intended audience of my comment did not include advocates of prescriptive linguistics, which is fine, because vanishingly few of those exist, and the ones who do spend most of their time attempting to argue that everyone else doesn't know how to effectively communicate.
        lutusp 13y ago
        >> but in a context that leads the reader to wonder whether you're referring to the belief itself, or to its holder's sincerity in holding it. > That's been my point this entire time. Yes, I know, and rather than take the advice of someone with six decades of English writing experience, you chose to defend a questionable word choice as thought it was self-evident. > You appear to be the only reader who was confused ... How very scientific. Has it occurred to you that I am also the only reader? In any case, this is easily resolved by polling common usage: Google: "Sincere belief": 207,000 uses, "Genuine belief": 137,000 uses. And looking more carefully, one finds that many of the "genuine belief" citations are meant to refer to a belief in something thought to be true. Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBCrMLBCPw, in which this remark appears in the comments: "How could a belief that contradicts available information be a genuine belief?" > and the ones who do spend most of their time attempting to argue that everyone else doesn't know how to effectively communicate. To the degree that I do this at all, I reserve my efforts for examples in which ... wait for it ... someone clearly doesn't know how to effectively communicate.