6 ms·

I dislike the fact that females get a lot more attention because of their gender. If you want true equality you've to start treating everybody as equals and giv

I dislike the fact that females get a lot more attention because of their gender. If you want true equality you've to start treating everybody as equals and giving extra space for some just doesn't cut it. I see this all the time in my country (I don't know if this is the case here) but females get a lot more attention in basically all areas of society and I don't think much good can come from that. Well, I guess I'm just trying to write as a man in the extremely feministic country of Sweden I kind of feel left out and viewed as "not as important" as the counter gender. Since I am quite young and the feministic views here just has grown stronger with the years, this feeling has grown on me since I started elementary school. Now in my twenties, I don't think it's that weird I think feminism is possibly one of the worst phenomenas in my country and the world in general.

onmydesk 13y ago
Fundamentally its irrational. And I note comments like this are voted down without any rational response to the perfectly valid points made. I dislike sexism and am alarmed at its acceptance.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
dandrews 13y ago
staticelf, most of us here want that "true equality" that you refer to. But the unassailable fact of the matter is that we don't have it today. Look around you: assuming you're in IT, unless you work in a truly remarkable place men considerably outnumber women. We (and I mean the egalitarian "we") have to do something about that. I'd welcome your suggestion. But "start treating everybody as equals" is a goal, and not very prescriptive. How do we get from point A to point B? (I upvoted you because your discourse is reasoned and polite.)
- onmydesk 13y ago
  "men considerably outnumber women. We (and I mean the egalitarian "we") have to do something about that." Why? What is that evidence of? You assume sexism presumably. Men and women are different and have predispositions to excel in different areas. You know what would be really weird? A 50/50 split. Why is that the definition of correct? Why are so few people rational about this?
  - _xo_ 13y ago
    Even assuming you are correct about this - CS is not one of these areas. If you go back a few decades, programming was a much more even leveled field. In the 80s, approximately 50% of all programmers were female. (For numbers see e.g. http://blog.fogcreek.com/girls-go-geek-again/ http://blog.fogcreek.com/girls-go-geek-again/)
    - onmydesk 13y ago
      Why is 50% correct? Why was that right and later lower values wrong? What is the rationale?
      - gtremper 13y ago
        Because 50% of humans are female. If there's a strong deviation from this in a large sample size, then there must be a correlation between being a woman and in CS. If gender didn't matter, there wouldn't be a correlation.
        onmydesk 13y ago
        I don't deny the correlation. I question the assumption that it is due to prejudice. It could be due to differences in the predispositions to excel at different types of work between the sexes. Men and women are different. Why are so many professional basket ball players black? Racism? There is an implicit assumption in this and its validity is assumed. It is not being questioned.
      - nsxwolf 13y ago
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Might I intervene for a moment? You're confusing equal opportunity with equal representation. I don't know under what definition of "true equality" you operate in, but typically it refers to the former.
- gcb0 13y ago
  In my office, the ratio of man to women is 1:1 under 24. After that it skews. The last 3 female co-workers we had to replace decided to be full time moms. So, please, explain how lowering the expectations of every woman that soldiers on and not go be full time moms/wifes is improving our lives? This is nothing but a short term gain with longer term side effects. A few women now cling to those handicaps to reap the easy benefits, while contributing to the overall notion that woman can't still be equal because, well, they still need the handicap. But go on. convince yourself of what you want and enjoy the brief spotlight.
- staticelf 13y ago
  Yes I realize that most of the people want that. But I believe that if we try and take the quick route it will over time only make the situation worse. Of course, you are correct in your statement that men outnumber women in the field of IT. But I disagree with the statement that we have to do anything special about that unless that special thing is the golden rule to treat others how you want be treated yourself. I don't want to be put aside, or left behind just because there is less women in the job that I may apply to in the future. So I treat any such endeavor to endorse gender-promotion as a hostile action, because it is unless the goal isn't equality. I want people to have equal chance and the route we're on now is not heading in that way at all. The goal is clear and so should the message be, the goal will be reached as any other goal gets reached. You take one step in the right direction and educate people on why it's important to treat each other as equals. If this path won't change, I will get older with the same views on the society I have now. Who knows, perhaps I will employ people in the future and I will bring my experience with it. As will a lot of other people with the same experience of getting put aside, left behind or not valued as they should because of their gender. From my experience and if it carries on and get worse do you really think women (in this case) will benefit from that? All it says to me right now is to have suspicion against women in IT, since they're getting all kind of help to be promoted and their skills or experience may very well not be real. How may I know the difference? Will she deliver? All those questions and certainly there are a few will just make it easier for the employer to pick the employ the other gender. This is as well as true for women-dominated work environments. I'm not saying I actually will do that if I become an employer, but as it is right now that's unfortunately the way it's headed and is the hard truth. There is a lot of people that feels like this, probably on both sides of the gender. Even if we get downvoted on community sites just because right now our thoughts are "wrong" it won't change the fact that endorsing a gender in the name of equality is not just a cruel thing to do, it's counter effective. It is easy to breed hate, it's a lot harder to get rid of it. Trust me, I am one of those people that will hate if it just continues.
  - enneff 13y ago
    > that special thing is the golden rule to treat others how you want be treated yourself. Unless you have some magical way of forcing everyone to suddenly drop their prejudices, then there is a need for social activism. Sorry if that inconveniences you. Your entire argument is a straw man. Who are these women being given more than a fair chance? Bear in mind that the purpose of this "Female Founders" event is to show other women that there are successful women in technology. The idea is to inspire other women to get involved. We don't have "Male Founders" events because almost all "Founders" events would qualify.
- theknown99 13y ago
  > unless you work in a truly remarkable place men considerably outnumber women. That in no way points to inequality. It points to the fact that men and women want different things, and have different strengths and weaknesses. The idea that there aren't as many women in IT as men because of some sort of discrimination is laughable.
- facepalm 13y ago
  Men outnumber women in IT because most IT jobs sucks, and women don't want jobs that suck. Also, women don't have to take jobs that suck, therefore they don't go into IT. The perception of IT has been distorted by some glamorous startup success stories and their photo galleries of comfy office space with free cappuccino. The daily reality of most software engineers is much different. Time will perhaps show the truth of those words - I'm sure you'll disagree for now.
enneff 13y ago
The Swedish male is doing fine. You might not be, personally, but it's not because you're discriminated against. You describe your country as "extremely feministic" as if it's a bad thing, but how can that be when there is still such a strong gender imbalance? http://qz.com/37036/in-sweden-women-make-up-45-of-parliament-but-only-13-of-corporate-leadership/ http://qz.com/37036/in-sweden-women-make-up-45-of-parliament... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-18/top-female-swedish-banker-punches-hold-in-equality-myth.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-18/top-female-swedish-... http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/12/research-lack-women-executive-roles http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/12/research-lac...
- wyager 13y ago
  Just because one group is marginalized in some way doesn't make it OK to intentionally marginalize another group in what can only be called retaliation. I personally subscribe to the ethos of "two wrongs don't make a right".
  - enneff 13y ago
    The GP makes the unsupported (and IMO spurious) claim that in Sweden, "females get a lot more attention in basically all areas of society". You're now categorising that (which may not exist) as aggression against men. Show us the evidence that men in Sweden are marginalised and I'll jump right on that anti-feminism bandwagon. I suspect I'll be waiting a while.
    - joyeuse6701 13y ago
      Swedish circumcision laws are an interesting topic.
PhasmaFelis 13y ago
> I dislike the fact that females get a lot more attention because of their gender. If you want true equality you've to start treating everybody as equals and giving extra space for some just doesn't cut it. "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread." If you want true equality, you must help the downtrodden to rise up and stand as equals. These days, when someone in a deep hole is given a ladder to help them climb out, it's popular for bystanders on the sidewalk above to cry "It's not fair! Why don't I get a ladder? I'm being treated unequally!" Well, no. You don't get a ladder because you're not in a hole. That's an oversimplification, of course. We all have our own holes, of varying depths, and for all our best efforts there still aren't enough ladders to go around, nor enough people to distribute them. I'm not sure what the solution is. But I'm pretty sure that demanding that we smash all the ladders isn't it.
ttdi 13y ago
this comment literally has no redeeming qualities
EliRivers 13y ago
I am awfully backwards in this; I still use the common dictionary definition of "feminism", meaning "advocating social and political equality of genders", which I understand has now fallen out of common use. On the assumption that you mean something else when you say "feminism", what do you mean?
Crake 13y ago
I want to move to Europe someday (possibly), but while I love how liberal a lot of the place is and admire their strong social safety net, the tendency to shift discrimination around from one demographic to the next instead of trying to eliminate it completely is something I find quite alarming. :/
facepalm 13y ago
Women have always been more important than men, because they bring the babies into the world. That is why men become cannon fodder - they are expendable. What irks me about modern feminism is the claim that women have it so bad in society, when really they have privileges everywhere. Including less pressure to make a good income, and therefore more freedom in choosing jobs (jobs that are more fun often pay less good). Some of those less attractive jobs include IT... I mean I think it is OK if women have privileges - I've watched my wife give birth. That makes up for a lot of things. But to give privileges and then be accused is not appropriate.

onmydesk 13y ago

Fundamentally its irrational. And I note comments like this are voted down without any rational response to the perfectly valid points made. I dislike sexism and am alarmed at its acceptance.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

dandrews 13y ago

staticelf, most of us here want that "true equality" that you refer to. But the unassailable fact of the matter is that we don't have it today. Look around you: assuming you're in IT, unless you work in a truly remarkable place men considerably outnumber women. We (and I mean the egalitarian "we") have to do something about that. I'd welcome your suggestion. But "start treating everybody as equals" is a goal, and not very prescriptive. How do we get from point A to point B? (I upvoted you because your discourse is reasoned and polite.)

onmydesk 13y ago
"men considerably outnumber women. We (and I mean the egalitarian "we") have to do something about that." Why? What is that evidence of? You assume sexism presumably. Men and women are different and have predispositions to excel in different areas. You know what would be really weird? A 50/50 split. Why is that the definition of correct? Why are so few people rational about this?
- _xo_ 13y ago
  Even assuming you are correct about this - CS is not one of these areas. If you go back a few decades, programming was a much more even leveled field. In the 80s, approximately 50% of all programmers were female. (For numbers see e.g. http://blog.fogcreek.com/girls-go-geek-again/ http://blog.fogcreek.com/girls-go-geek-again/)
  - onmydesk 13y ago
    Why is 50% correct? Why was that right and later lower values wrong? What is the rationale?
    - gtremper 13y ago
      Because 50% of humans are female. If there's a strong deviation from this in a large sample size, then there must be a correlation between being a woman and in CS. If gender didn't matter, there wouldn't be a correlation.
      - onmydesk 13y ago
        I don't deny the correlation. I question the assumption that it is due to prejudice. It could be due to differences in the predispositions to excel at different types of work between the sexes. Men and women are different. Why are so many professional basket ball players black? Racism? There is an implicit assumption in this and its validity is assumed. It is not being questioned.
    - nsxwolf 13y ago
vezzy-fnord 13y ago
Might I intervene for a moment? You're confusing equal opportunity with equal representation. I don't know under what definition of "true equality" you operate in, but typically it refers to the former.
gcb0 13y ago
In my office, the ratio of man to women is 1:1 under 24. After that it skews. The last 3 female co-workers we had to replace decided to be full time moms. So, please, explain how lowering the expectations of every woman that soldiers on and not go be full time moms/wifes is improving our lives? This is nothing but a short term gain with longer term side effects. A few women now cling to those handicaps to reap the easy benefits, while contributing to the overall notion that woman can't still be equal because, well, they still need the handicap. But go on. convince yourself of what you want and enjoy the brief spotlight.
staticelf 13y ago
Yes I realize that most of the people want that. But I believe that if we try and take the quick route it will over time only make the situation worse. Of course, you are correct in your statement that men outnumber women in the field of IT. But I disagree with the statement that we have to do anything special about that unless that special thing is the golden rule to treat others how you want be treated yourself. I don't want to be put aside, or left behind just because there is less women in the job that I may apply to in the future. So I treat any such endeavor to endorse gender-promotion as a hostile action, because it is unless the goal isn't equality. I want people to have equal chance and the route we're on now is not heading in that way at all. The goal is clear and so should the message be, the goal will be reached as any other goal gets reached. You take one step in the right direction and educate people on why it's important to treat each other as equals. If this path won't change, I will get older with the same views on the society I have now. Who knows, perhaps I will employ people in the future and I will bring my experience with it. As will a lot of other people with the same experience of getting put aside, left behind or not valued as they should because of their gender. From my experience and if it carries on and get worse do you really think women (in this case) will benefit from that? All it says to me right now is to have suspicion against women in IT, since they're getting all kind of help to be promoted and their skills or experience may very well not be real. How may I know the difference? Will she deliver? All those questions and certainly there are a few will just make it easier for the employer to pick the employ the other gender. This is as well as true for women-dominated work environments. I'm not saying I actually will do that if I become an employer, but as it is right now that's unfortunately the way it's headed and is the hard truth. There is a lot of people that feels like this, probably on both sides of the gender. Even if we get downvoted on community sites just because right now our thoughts are "wrong" it won't change the fact that endorsing a gender in the name of equality is not just a cruel thing to do, it's counter effective. It is easy to breed hate, it's a lot harder to get rid of it. Trust me, I am one of those people that will hate if it just continues.
- enneff 13y ago
  > that special thing is the golden rule to treat others how you want be treated yourself. Unless you have some magical way of forcing everyone to suddenly drop their prejudices, then there is a need for social activism. Sorry if that inconveniences you. Your entire argument is a straw man. Who are these women being given more than a fair chance? Bear in mind that the purpose of this "Female Founders" event is to show other women that there are successful women in technology. The idea is to inspire other women to get involved. We don't have "Male Founders" events because almost all "Founders" events would qualify.
theknown99 13y ago
> unless you work in a truly remarkable place men considerably outnumber women. That in no way points to inequality. It points to the fact that men and women want different things, and have different strengths and weaknesses. The idea that there aren't as many women in IT as men because of some sort of discrimination is laughable.
facepalm 13y ago
Men outnumber women in IT because most IT jobs sucks, and women don't want jobs that suck. Also, women don't have to take jobs that suck, therefore they don't go into IT. The perception of IT has been distorted by some glamorous startup success stories and their photo galleries of comfy office space with free cappuccino. The daily reality of most software engineers is much different. Time will perhaps show the truth of those words - I'm sure you'll disagree for now.

enneff 13y ago

The Swedish male is doing fine. You might not be, personally, but it's not because you're discriminated against. You describe your country as "extremely feministic" as if it's a bad thing, but how can that be when there is still such a strong gender imbalance? http://qz.com/37036/in-sweden-women-make-up-45-of-parliament-but-only-13-of-corporate-leadership/ http://qz.com/37036/in-sweden-women-make-up-45-of-parliament... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-18/top-female-swedish-banker-punches-hold-in-equality-myth.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-18/top-female-swedish-... http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/12/research-lack-women-executive-roles http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/12/research-lac...

wyager 13y ago
Just because one group is marginalized in some way doesn't make it OK to intentionally marginalize another group in what can only be called retaliation. I personally subscribe to the ethos of "two wrongs don't make a right".
- enneff 13y ago
  The GP makes the unsupported (and IMO spurious) claim that in Sweden, "females get a lot more attention in basically all areas of society". You're now categorising that (which may not exist) as aggression against men. Show us the evidence that men in Sweden are marginalised and I'll jump right on that anti-feminism bandwagon. I suspect I'll be waiting a while.
  - joyeuse6701 13y ago
    Swedish circumcision laws are an interesting topic.

PhasmaFelis 13y ago

> I dislike the fact that females get a lot more attention because of their gender. If you want true equality you've to start treating everybody as equals and giving extra space for some just doesn't cut it. "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread." If you want true equality, you must help the downtrodden to rise up and stand as equals. These days, when someone in a deep hole is given a ladder to help them climb out, it's popular for bystanders on the sidewalk above to cry "It's not fair! Why don't I get a ladder? I'm being treated unequally!" Well, no. You don't get a ladder because you're not in a hole. That's an oversimplification, of course. We all have our own holes, of varying depths, and for all our best efforts there still aren't enough ladders to go around, nor enough people to distribute them. I'm not sure what the solution is. But I'm pretty sure that demanding that we smash all the ladders isn't it.

ttdi 13y ago

this comment literally has no redeeming qualities

EliRivers 13y ago

I am awfully backwards in this; I still use the common dictionary definition of "feminism", meaning "advocating social and political equality of genders", which I understand has now fallen out of common use. On the assumption that you mean something else when you say "feminism", what do you mean?

Crake 13y ago

I want to move to Europe someday (possibly), but while I love how liberal a lot of the place is and admire their strong social safety net, the tendency to shift discrimination around from one demographic to the next instead of trying to eliminate it completely is something I find quite alarming. :/

facepalm 13y ago

Women have always been more important than men, because they bring the babies into the world. That is why men become cannon fodder - they are expendable. What irks me about modern feminism is the claim that women have it so bad in society, when really they have privileges everywhere. Including less pressure to make a good income, and therefore more freedom in choosing jobs (jobs that are more fun often pay less good). Some of those less attractive jobs include IT... I mean I think it is OK if women have privileges - I've watched my wife give birth. That makes up for a lot of things. But to give privileges and then be accused is not appropriate.