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Who do you think wouldn't click? This sort of condescending underestimation of the HN crowd just amazes me! As expected, it's currently #1 on HN.

by Jun8 13y ago

Ambrosia 13y ago
I guess you haven't seen the normal shit that comes up whenever people try to encourage women to do stuff.
- Jun8 13y ago
  Nope, this is in fact one of the topics that I feel strongly (and try to work on with high school prog teams). Yet, I feel there's a bit of hysteresis effect on that discussion, with HN flooded with such posts. Most of the "normal shit" on HN you refer to stems from the above. This one is quite different though, it's actually about female founders, not just targeting girls for coding.
jonalmeida 13y ago
Not true, I didn't click the link because I feared it was about getting more female founders in development. After reading namenotrequired's comment I clicked.
- Crake 13y ago
  Yeah, same. :/ Funny, isn't? All the Adria Richards of the world claiming to want to increase the exposure of women in tech are actively discouraging exactly that.
  - jonalmeida 13y ago
    It's an interesting point. I think it's discouraging young male entrepreneurs. Hacker School has special funding for women wanting to apply and while I consciously ignore this, sub-consciously, I feel that I have a less likely chance of getting in so why bother applying.
    - thesimpsons1022 13y ago
      I never understood this. Does hacker school think women as a demographic are less wealthy than men? If they are applying its because they are interested, offering to pay wouldnt make more women interested, it just favors the ones that are even !ore. There's a reason women get imposter syndrome so often, because they are given extraordinary benefits and attention.
    - Crake 13y ago
      I feel deeply uncomfortable with it as well. Getting paid $5,000 for having a vagina is usually something associated with, err, other industries. I'd feel much better if it were on the basis of financial need rather than which set of genitals you have (and as a non-cis person, makes me wonder what they'd do with a trans person...).
    - jvns 13y ago
      Hacker School judges everyone the same way -- they'd love to admit everyone who's friendly and excited about becoming a better programmer.
    - ameister14 13y ago
      Why does encouraging others discourage you? If I praise someone else does it make you feel less worthy?
      - jonalmeida 13y ago
        Again, I'm all for achieving the same goal of equality, but maybe not in the same way that some places go about it. Hacker School is just an example institution, and I'm not trying to bash them or question their judgement - they really do seem like an amazing group of people, which is why I'd love to go there. That said, I don't see why any man who isn't able to fully fund his stay, shouldn't be able to apply for a HS grant. If its for encouragement, then it would seem discouraging to those that can't apply for it. I'm not in this boat, but I can think of a few people who should go to HS but just can't afford to.
  - chc 13y ago
    You don't have to support things like this, but have you ever considered not constantly taking pot-shots at efforts to correct a really blatant inequality like this?
    - Crake 13y ago
      There isn't any blatant inequality except for the sex based discrimination being pushed on the field by feminists, which won't be corrected without pushback from egalitarians.
      - chc 13y ago
        If you believe the sexes are equally represented in this field, you should probably try to learn more about a topic like this before forming such strong feelings on it, because the numbers show that not to be remotely true. I honestly have trouble believing you really think this, but I'll assume you're sincere but misinformed, which is kind of a relief. The claim that there are as many women in tech as men is as poorly borne out by the numbers as the idea that Topeka is five miles from Tokyo. Please, do some cursory research and you will see that women really are badly outnumbered in tech.
        microjesus 13y ago
        "badly outnumbered". Should this be a contest? Where are hard facts on discrimination of women in our field?
        Crake 13y ago
        They have equal opportunity. (Actually, no, women have greater opportunity than men do these days.) That's not a guarantee of equal outcome, though.
      - david_shaw 13y ago
        > the sex based discrimination being pushed on the field by feminists I've tried to avoid this inane discussion, but realizing that you're probably misinformed rather than malicious, I thought I'd chime in. Feminism is egalitarianism. Feminism literally means that women should be equal to men. I'm not going to argue with you about so-called "segregationist" policies, because it seems like we'd come to a stand-still. The only thing I'd like to point out is that we should all be feminists, because the only alternative is sexism. Seriously, look it up. If you've had a bad experience with radical women who say "all men are pigs," please don't use that as a reason to not support true feminists (such as myself), who (among other things) are trying to rectify the atrociously low ratio of women in tech. Yes, we all want a meritocracy. Yes, there's something that we're doing to prevent more women from entering the field. Yes, we need to change that.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
    Really? I would have guessed it was all the MRA assholes.
    - Crake 13y ago
      >a person disagrees with GFK >"must be one of those evil MRAs"
namenotrequired 13y ago
Sorry if that's condescending? It wasn't meant to be. I just know many men might understandably not be immediately interested in something that's clearly aimed at women. Edit: Oh, and also because it didn't appear on the front page until ~30 minutes after it started (though it had appeared on new a few times).
- Jun8 13y ago
  No problem, it just seemed that you had a priori assumptions that may not be correct. If you want to sell to women, of course you would be interested, e.g. the great scene where Darcy first meets and teaches Nick this point in What Women Want (great movie all through, btw). As an edge case, think of people in Mattel not being interested in what girls think!
  - namenotrequired 13y ago
    You're right, I'm happy to see I was less correct than I expected after it seemed to be ignored initially. The new page is a funny beast. Sorry, I'm afraid that reference is lost on me :(

Who do you think wouldn't click? This sort of condescending underestimation of the HN crowd just amazes me! As expected, it's currently #1 on HN.

by Jun8 13y ago

Who do you think wouldn't click? This sort of condescending underestimation of the HN crowd just amazes me! As expected, it's currently #1 on HN.

Ambrosia 13y ago

I guess you haven't seen the normal shit that comes up whenever people try to encourage women to do stuff.

Jun8 13y ago
Nope, this is in fact one of the topics that I feel strongly (and try to work on with high school prog teams). Yet, I feel there's a bit of hysteresis effect on that discussion, with HN flooded with such posts. Most of the "normal shit" on HN you refer to stems from the above. This one is quite different though, it's actually about female founders, not just targeting girls for coding.

jonalmeida 13y ago

Not true, I didn't click the link because I feared it was about getting more female founders in development. After reading namenotrequired's comment I clicked.

Crake 13y ago
Yeah, same. :/ Funny, isn't? All the Adria Richards of the world claiming to want to increase the exposure of women in tech are actively discouraging exactly that.
- jonalmeida 13y ago
  It's an interesting point. I think it's discouraging young male entrepreneurs. Hacker School has special funding for women wanting to apply and while I consciously ignore this, sub-consciously, I feel that I have a less likely chance of getting in so why bother applying.
  - thesimpsons1022 13y ago
    I never understood this. Does hacker school think women as a demographic are less wealthy than men? If they are applying its because they are interested, offering to pay wouldnt make more women interested, it just favors the ones that are even !ore. There's a reason women get imposter syndrome so often, because they are given extraordinary benefits and attention.
  - Crake 13y ago
    I feel deeply uncomfortable with it as well. Getting paid $5,000 for having a vagina is usually something associated with, err, other industries. I'd feel much better if it were on the basis of financial need rather than which set of genitals you have (and as a non-cis person, makes me wonder what they'd do with a trans person...).
  - jvns 13y ago
    Hacker School judges everyone the same way -- they'd love to admit everyone who's friendly and excited about becoming a better programmer.
  - ameister14 13y ago
    Why does encouraging others discourage you? If I praise someone else does it make you feel less worthy?
    - jonalmeida 13y ago
      Again, I'm all for achieving the same goal of equality, but maybe not in the same way that some places go about it. Hacker School is just an example institution, and I'm not trying to bash them or question their judgement - they really do seem like an amazing group of people, which is why I'd love to go there. That said, I don't see why any man who isn't able to fully fund his stay, shouldn't be able to apply for a HS grant. If its for encouragement, then it would seem discouraging to those that can't apply for it. I'm not in this boat, but I can think of a few people who should go to HS but just can't afford to.
- chc 13y ago
  You don't have to support things like this, but have you ever considered not constantly taking pot-shots at efforts to correct a really blatant inequality like this?
  - Crake 13y ago
    There isn't any blatant inequality except for the sex based discrimination being pushed on the field by feminists, which won't be corrected without pushback from egalitarians.
    - chc 13y ago
      If you believe the sexes are equally represented in this field, you should probably try to learn more about a topic like this before forming such strong feelings on it, because the numbers show that not to be remotely true. I honestly have trouble believing you really think this, but I'll assume you're sincere but misinformed, which is kind of a relief. The claim that there are as many women in tech as men is as poorly borne out by the numbers as the idea that Topeka is five miles from Tokyo. Please, do some cursory research and you will see that women really are badly outnumbered in tech.
      - microjesus 13y ago
        "badly outnumbered". Should this be a contest? Where are hard facts on discrimination of women in our field?
      - Crake 13y ago
        They have equal opportunity. (Actually, no, women have greater opportunity than men do these days.) That's not a guarantee of equal outcome, though.
    - david_shaw 13y ago
      > the sex based discrimination being pushed on the field by feminists I've tried to avoid this inane discussion, but realizing that you're probably misinformed rather than malicious, I thought I'd chime in. Feminism is egalitarianism. Feminism literally means that women should be equal to men. I'm not going to argue with you about so-called "segregationist" policies, because it seems like we'd come to a stand-still. The only thing I'd like to point out is that we should all be feminists, because the only alternative is sexism. Seriously, look it up. If you've had a bad experience with radical women who say "all men are pigs," please don't use that as a reason to not support true feminists (such as myself), who (among other things) are trying to rectify the atrociously low ratio of women in tech. Yes, we all want a meritocracy. Yes, there's something that we're doing to prevent more women from entering the field. Yes, we need to change that.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
  Really? I would have guessed it was all the MRA assholes.
  - Crake 13y ago
    >a person disagrees with GFK >"must be one of those evil MRAs"

namenotrequired 13y ago

Sorry if that's condescending? It wasn't meant to be. I just know many men might understandably not be immediately interested in something that's clearly aimed at women. Edit: Oh, and also because it didn't appear on the front page until ~30 minutes after it started (though it had appeared on new a few times).

Jun8 13y ago
No problem, it just seemed that you had a priori assumptions that may not be correct. If you want to sell to women, of course you would be interested, e.g. the great scene where Darcy first meets and teaches Nick this point in What Women Want (great movie all through, btw). As an edge case, think of people in Mattel not being interested in what girls think!
- namenotrequired 13y ago
  You're right, I'm happy to see I was less correct than I expected after it seemed to be ignored initially. The new page is a funny beast. Sorry, I'm afraid that reference is lost on me :(