5 ms·

And I still don't understand why you'd pick yaml over anything else out there.

by theg2 13y ago

stormbrew 13y ago
I pick it for config files humans have to write and read because writing and reading json as a human is tedious and error prone.
- vertex-four 13y ago
  As someone who has to write yaml... writing yaml is significantly more error-prone than JSON. It has far more edge cases than JSON does.
  - stormbrew 13y ago
    I agree it has a lot of corner cases, but they are mostly in service of allowing for an uncluttered document. The fact that you can always write a subset of the document in json is helpful when things get hairy. But this is a thing that often gets ignored when talking about what humans are good at reading and writing. We aren't computers (or at least, we aren't as linear of computers). It's obvious enough in the languages that we speak and write every day with each other that we derive from and plant a lot of meaning in the margins of our expression. We tend to understand things quite clearly when noise has been elided out. A lot of JSON becomes pure noise: "{{[[{[{{[". Really, though, what I'm most in favour of is that now that we've agreed on a basic data model that is less insane than its obvious predecessors (ASN.1 and XML) it would be nice if applications with configuration opened themselves to allowing the user to decide the specific format for their own benefit. If it's TOML or JSON or JSON5 or JSON+comments (Sublime Text) or YAML or whatever, so long as it results in the same structure who cares?
    - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
      > A lot of JSON becomes pure noise: "{{[[{[{{[". I'd rather that be visible brackets than invisible whitespace.
      - stormbrew 13y ago
        Why? Assuming 'invisible whitespace' in this context is actually a meaningful thing. I find it hard to miss indentation, if anything, to the point that given a conflict between whitespace and a sea of brackets/braces my first instinct is probably to trust the whitespace. I don't think I'm alone in that.
        TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        so do you use tabs or spaces. or tabs AND spaces. Is that 2 spaces or 4? or did I accidentally put 5 in somewhere? is a trailing space going to cause problems or not? Text editors certainly don't help keep this stuff straight. I just don't think white space should be part of the syntax. It makes editing HARDER. not easier. And it's not even visible, unless I turn on a special feature in my text editor. I just don't know what exactly you YAML guys are smoking that you think it's easy or more humanistic.
        stormbrew 13y ago
        ... So, in YAML you can only use leading spaces. Leading tabs are an error. This confusion of yours is not at all present in the actual thing you're talking about. And if you mix them in json god help you if your editor settings don't match someone else's because you might be looking at something nearly incomprehensible that won't error or warn at all. I mean, have you ever actually looked at a code file of any sort with mixed tabs and spaces when the person who wrote the file had a different tab stop than you? This is a readability problem no matter what. Forcing you to have sane indentation is a feature of whitespace-sensitivity, not a bug. What exactly do you think trailing whitespace does? If I'm smoking something, at least I've used the things I'm talking about instead of spreading weird FUD.
        jasonlotito 13y ago
        > at least I've used the things I'm talking about instead of spreading weird FUD. > A lot of JSON becomes pure noise: "{{[[{[{{[". Pro-tip: if you are going to call someone out for not knowing a format and spreading FUD, don't post things where you do the same exact thing. It pretty much invalidates the criticisms you've been making as it says "I don't know what I'm talking about, here is proof."
theophrastus 13y ago
Is the reason for "json5" understandable?
eropple 13y ago
Hierarchical, supports comments for explanation of intent, is more supported than HOCON. Data type specifiers a major plus. I'll take all your suggestions.

And I still don't understand why you'd pick yaml over anything else out there.

by theg2 13y ago

And I still don't understand why you'd pick yaml over anything else out there.

I pick it for config files humans have to write and read because writing and reading json as a human is tedious and error prone.

vertex-four 13y ago
As someone who has to write yaml... writing yaml is significantly more error-prone than JSON. It has far more edge cases than JSON does.
- stormbrew 13y ago
  I agree it has a lot of corner cases, but they are mostly in service of allowing for an uncluttered document. The fact that you can always write a subset of the document in json is helpful when things get hairy. But this is a thing that often gets ignored when talking about what humans are good at reading and writing. We aren't computers (or at least, we aren't as linear of computers). It's obvious enough in the languages that we speak and write every day with each other that we derive from and plant a lot of meaning in the margins of our expression. We tend to understand things quite clearly when noise has been elided out. A lot of JSON becomes pure noise: "{{[[{[{{[". Really, though, what I'm most in favour of is that now that we've agreed on a basic data model that is less insane than its obvious predecessors (ASN.1 and XML) it would be nice if applications with configuration opened themselves to allowing the user to decide the specific format for their own benefit. If it's TOML or JSON or JSON5 or JSON+comments (Sublime Text) or YAML or whatever, so long as it results in the same structure who cares?
  - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
    > A lot of JSON becomes pure noise: "{{[[{[{{[". I'd rather that be visible brackets than invisible whitespace.
    - stormbrew 13y ago
      Why? Assuming 'invisible whitespace' in this context is actually a meaningful thing. I find it hard to miss indentation, if anything, to the point that given a conflict between whitespace and a sea of brackets/braces my first instinct is probably to trust the whitespace. I don't think I'm alone in that.
      - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        so do you use tabs or spaces. or tabs AND spaces. Is that 2 spaces or 4? or did I accidentally put 5 in somewhere? is a trailing space going to cause problems or not? Text editors certainly don't help keep this stuff straight. I just don't think white space should be part of the syntax. It makes editing HARDER. not easier. And it's not even visible, unless I turn on a special feature in my text editor. I just don't know what exactly you YAML guys are smoking that you think it's easy or more humanistic.
        stormbrew 13y ago
        ... So, in YAML you can only use leading spaces. Leading tabs are an error. This confusion of yours is not at all present in the actual thing you're talking about. And if you mix them in json god help you if your editor settings don't match someone else's because you might be looking at something nearly incomprehensible that won't error or warn at all. I mean, have you ever actually looked at a code file of any sort with mixed tabs and spaces when the person who wrote the file had a different tab stop than you? This is a readability problem no matter what. Forcing you to have sane indentation is a feature of whitespace-sensitivity, not a bug. What exactly do you think trailing whitespace does? If I'm smoking something, at least I've used the things I'm talking about instead of spreading weird FUD.
        jasonlotito 13y ago
        > at least I've used the things I'm talking about instead of spreading weird FUD. > A lot of JSON becomes pure noise: "{{[[{[{{[". Pro-tip: if you are going to call someone out for not knowing a format and spreading FUD, don't post things where you do the same exact thing. It pretty much invalidates the criticisms you've been making as it says "I don't know what I'm talking about, here is proof."

theophrastus 13y ago

Is the reason for "json5" understandable?

eropple 13y ago

Hierarchical, supports comments for explanation of intent, is more supported than HOCON. Data type specifiers a major plus. I'll take all your suggestions.