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From what I gather, Obama has some of the same foreign policy advisors as Bush did. We are pursuing some backdoor strategy to get Ukraine to join the EU. The de

by lmg643 13y ago

From what I gather, Obama has some of the same foreign policy advisors as Bush did. We are pursuing some backdoor strategy to get Ukraine to join the EU. The democratically elected president chose to ally with Russia instead, because Russia offered them more. We set up riots over there, and he flees the capital. The leader is declared to be deposed, and now a leader friendly to the west can take over. Russia can't stand for this - they have military bases in the country, and it is literally in their backyard. In terms of distance to moscow, it would be like taking over north carolina to washington DC. Question is - who is the aggressor in this situation, really? How is some unelected foreign policy team, fighting some bullshit game over expanding the EU, able to get us into this kind of mess? I thought Obama was supposed to be the anti-imperialist replacement for Bush? Or is each new president just a toady of the people who really run the show? I've got no stomach for war. We've done enough damage to ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Please Obama, live up to what you were elected for - make that nobel peace prize count for something.

visakanv 13y ago
What exactly can Obama do, though? Anybody have any clear ideas?
- cwaniak 13y ago
  This dude never knows what to do. That's the problem. With Bush as a President Putin just wouldn't dare.
  - afterburner 13y ago
    Do you remember this actual war Russia fought and won during Bush's tenure? Didn't think so. The US's forces were tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq during that time, Putin had even more leeway than he does now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war
    - cwaniak 13y ago
      What are you talking about???? Bush kept building US bases in plenty of ex-USSR republics day and night. He kept Putin by the balls. I'm an US citizen in Poland now. Bush wanted to build anti-ballistic shield in Poland that would render this country along Czech Republich untouchable by the Ruskies. First decision Obama made? He scrapped the whole deal in order not to make Russia feel bad. You have no idea how pissed of Poles are about that development. Strong president wouldn't do that. Strong President would build this freaking shield here and also in Ukraince. Just in case. And what about Syria? Huh? Obama just does what Putin says. That's whole Syria thing. Putin said, Obama did. WTF??? Is he a pussie or a president of the United States of America? He lacks balls in confrontation with America enemies who do whatever hell they want. And what is this now? Obama says on Friday, hey Putin there will be grave consequences if you involve yourself militarily in Ukraine. And what happens the very next day? What happens??Putin ignores this kid and his funny twitter posts and officially orders his army to invade Ukraine. Nobody treats this weakling seriously. Just let him go back to his community and smoke pot and leave politics to politicians with balls.
      - lotsofmangos 13y ago
        How does an anti-ballistic shield help against tanks then? The plan for anti-ballistic launchers in eastern europe are to protect the USA against long range launches, not to protect eastern europe from ground troops.
        cwaniak 13y ago
        OMG, the shield requires personnel to run it. So when you invade a country, you need to take into account there might be casualties among US serviceman. Now this is really risky. Another point, that's pretty simple: with the shield you can nuke Ruskies and they can't nuke you. Quite a difference compared to the current situation which is a direct result of Obama being soft on Putin.
  - us0r 13y ago
    So he should start a war with a nuclear power?
    - cwaniak 13y ago
      Oh no, definitely not. Now it's too late. For years this weakling (Obama) have been porting an image of a weakling and that's the problem. There are plenty of examples: Syria and the red-line with chemical weapons usage. That was a red-line, we were supposed to do something once it's crossed. So it was crossed and what Obama did? Listened to Putin who said don't invade!!! He listened to Putin! So Syria is lost because he is weak. He'd rather listen to Russian President than to keep his word to the international community. Another example: Bush was in the process of building anti-missile shield in Poland and Czech Republic. The shield would render the countries untouchable by the Ruskies. And what happened next? Obama won election and to "improve relations with Russia" sold our allies in Eastern Europe, scrapped the already signed deal regarding building the shield on the territory of our NATO allies, just not to worry Putin. These are just 2 examples I have no time to spend here to make up for your lack of interest in reading international news in the past few years. The point is this: if you promote such image of such a weakling to a bully like Putin, you will get hit. But, again it's too late now. We'd need to have McCain to fix that. None of that (shield in Eastern Europe, Syria) would ever happen with McCain or Bush leading the country.
      - visakanv 13y ago
        "None of that (shield in Eastern Europe, Syria) would ever happen with McCain or Bush leading the country." How are you so certain? =\
        cwaniak 13y ago
        Because under Bush shield building was already in process. There were US soldiers on the Polish ground literally building the damn thing. Then Obama went weak on Putin, broke US promise towards its Eastern European NATO allies, and stopped the process in its tracks. Great job!!!
- crudbuster 13y ago
  Obama is about to be pawnd by Putin. This is going to make him look extremely weak. If I was on his national security team, I would push for an immediate no-fly zone in Syria. Then, in March, when the Ukraine dissolves into 2 separate countries via referendum, the US will at least have gained something from Russia's blundering.
  - ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
    Pawnd? WTF? So, Obama is an imperialist if he sends in troops or supports the Ukrainian government (and there's zero chance of the former happening) or he's a dunce who gets pawnd by Putin? Seems like you've been suckered in by the cult of tough guy macho Putin.
    - davidw 13y ago
      > Seems like you've been suckered Seems like, from your comment history, that you've been suckered into a Political Discussion on HN :-) As they say: "the only winning move is not to play the game"
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
    - crudbuster 13y ago
      He is a tough guy. He just invaded a country by force and effectively told Obama to shutup up and sit down. It's Obama's move now. If he does nothing now, will he also do nothing when North Korea rolls into the South? The thugs are watching and learning.
      - ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
        Except...Ukraine is in no way comparable to Korea. Maybe there are 30000 American troops in Ukraine that I didn't hear about?
        13y ago
ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
Citation needed. Name those advisors. Every country in teh world recognizes Crimea as being Ukraine. Russia has just announced its invading that.
- lmg643 13y ago
  Victoria Nuland, the woman who was caught on the leaked tape saying "F*ck the EU", essentially because the EU was not quite as enthusiastic about supporting further action, was the principal deputy foreign policy adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland Obama has a lot of stuff he has to deal with on a daily basis - listening to the audio, it would make sense that she is calling the shots on a daily basis. you can hear her saying that she is going to arrange biden to give an "attaboy" which is basically "i need a guy in a leadership role to appear to bless this" not that biden is actually making any substantive decisions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o Her brother-in-law came up with Bush's "surge" strategy in 2007, her husband was a foreign policy advisor to mccain in 2008. i would guess that's not the full extent of their republican advisory work but that's all i found in a minute or two on wikipedia.
  - ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
    So, you're left with one lowly ranking woman who you think is some mastermind of an evil cabal. "Her brother-in-law came up with Bush's "surge" strategy in 2007" TOTALLY irrelevant here. Logical fallacy violated. Non sequitor. EDIT: Seriously, you think Victoria Nuland, by herself, is pulling the strings of the American foreign policy?
    - lmg643 13y ago
      How is Victoria Nuland "low ranking"? You realize the title "secretary" does not mean they answer phones and schedule appointments? Here's the state department org chart. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/dos/99494.htm http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/dos/99494.htm The assistant secretary position she holds is responsible for that area, and two links below the secretary of state.
foobarqux 13y ago
> I thought Obama was supposed to be the anti-imperialist replacement for Bush? America has been imperialist since WWII. It has nothing to do with the sitting president.
- MarkTee 13y ago
  America has been imperialist since the 1800s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War
pron 13y ago
"We set up riots over there": Who? How? I don't know much about this conflict, but neither Russia nor the Ukraine are democracies in the Western sense of the word. I've been to Ukraine once. It felt like the Wild West only without the code of honor you see in the movies.
- terranstyler 13y ago
  Last time I checked I didn't see any democracy in the Western sense of the word in the western world. Except for Switzerland maybe Examples: Tapping phones without warrant Searching homes without without warrant A policy of guilty until proven innocent Torture
  - pron 13y ago
    Obviously we have much to live up to. Democracy has always been more ideal than reality. But societies differ in their place along a "democracy" spectrum, and Russia and the Ukraine are much farther from that ideal than the west.
    - terranstyler 13y ago
      I know, but historically compared there were times when the above 4 "non-democratic behaviors" didn't occur (or they occurred less frequently or at least we didn't know). I see a tendency away from democracy which in my eyes destroys any credibility of the West to spearhead a democratic movement.
- ankitml 13y ago
  Why are they supposed to adhere to gold standard of western democracy? America seriously needs a reality check. Why such supreme belief in american(western) way of liberty. Rest of the world doesnt kill innocents in drones, guantanamo, libya, iraq ...
  - tptacek 13y ago
    No, they kill them with paramilitary snipers firing into crowds of demonstrators.
firstOrder 13y ago
> We set up riots there Just looking at pictures of what was going on in Kiev, it was fairly obvious. Nothing is going on and suddenly thousands of people are bussed into Kiev. Large video screens are set up and professional placards are distributed. Of course the always tell-tale English language signs of the "we want freedom" type. It does not generate an effect of the type desired so they up the amount of violence with burning cars, Molotov cocktails, and then bring out the guns. Then they finally get some control and immediately begin a harsh crackdown on the eastern portion of the country, the massive existing Russian military bases that are within land which was Russian until 1954, and officially autonomous from 1992 on etc. Ukraine isn't the only country being pushed into the EU, while Spain and Greece stagnate economically, they have the same kind of neo-nazis that have been marching through Kiev come to the fore. Croatia just got pushed into the EU a few months ago, despite opposition, economic stagnation etc. That Americans and some western Europeans are taking advantage of the situation is of their nature. What is laughable is watching their stage-managed show of neo-nazis and well-financed by outsiders demonstrations and hearing nonsensical moralistic bombast about freedom, how awful Russia is to protect its ceded territory with its military bases etc.
- lotsofmangos 13y ago
  If they are neo-nazis, why are ex-IDF jews fighting for them? As platoon leader, Delta says he takes orders from activists connected to Svoboda, an ultra-nationalist party that has been frequently accused of anti-Semitism and whose members have been said to have had key positions in organizing the opposition protests. “I don’t belong [to Svoboda], but I take orders from their team. They know I’m Israeli, Jewish and an ex-IDF soldier. They call me ‘brother,’” he said. “What they’re saying about Svoboda is exaggerated, I know this for a fact. I don’t like them because they’re inconsistent, not because of [any] anti-Semitism issue.” http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114 http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114
  - Elhana 13y ago
    If jews are happy with neo-nazis in Ukraine, why they are asking Netanyahu to send forces to protect them? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177920 http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177920
smsm42 13y ago
That's some pile of bullshit. Who are "we" that set up the riots? Those people stayed there since November, with wide popular support, risking life and limb. It is unbelievably obtuse to echo Kremlin propaganda that those were but the agents of US State Department. One has to be either exceptionally ignorant or exceptionally motivated to find a way to blame America to believe this canard. >>> Question is - who is the aggressor in this situation, really? Really? I guess that would be the country that sends the military to the territory of another country. But who would that be? There should be some way in here to blame America here and prove sending military into neighbor's territory is actually all fine, provided that neighbor did an unspeakable atrocity of potentially siding with America or EU. >>> I've got no stomach for war. Looks like you've got a lot of stomach for believing propaganda, as long as it matches your prejudices of America being the root of all evil. What a surprise would it be for you when it turns out believing propaganda spouted by an authoritarian dictator with ambitions for territorial conquest is not the surest way to achieve peace!
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- rjzzleep 13y ago
  >>> propaganda, as long as it matches your prejudices of America being the root of all evil. >>> believing propaganda spouted by an authoritarian dictator >>> ambitions for territorial conquest is not the surest way to achieve peace! wow dude, take a chill pill. how about you abide by what you're preaching? the us has military bases in more than 150 foreign countries
  - smsm42 13y ago
    I do? Nice to know. American people must be really generous giving 150 military bases to a dude who isn't even US citizen. I wonder what they give to citizens - it must be at least 10 military bases in 300 countries! I'm still not sure what I'm supposed to abide though. I guess you call me to abstain from invading foreign countries? I was going to invade Poland tomorrow, but if you say so, I won't. Citizens of Poland, you're welcome.
- 13y ago
rjzzleep 13y ago
how? same way libya was bombed into oblivion. same way europe and the us can "legally" send guns to extremists in syria, that decapitate civilians, christians, and basically anyone who disagrees with the destabilization efforts. same way france can constantly do political coups in african countries without anyone caring. heavy german support of the opposition, eu sanctions of the country(i'm not sure how legal this really is) certainly helped as well. you call it backdoor. i call it coup. and if we're still alive in 50 years, and didn't bomb ourselves into oblivion given the course we're taking right now, we can probably read about these coups in controversial sections of wikipedia or wikileaks. watch ukraine get split up like so many other countries in the recent past. it's not about which party is more powerful. it's about which party wins the media war. if we had respected their sovereignty in any manner we would have let them play out their conflicts internally, but we didn't. we completely supported the opposition.
- wismer 13y ago
  Imagine if you will a US that is not imperialist; a foreign policy that is one of isolationism. Now imagine Russia as it exists today; expansionist and oligarchical. With no one strong enough to oppose it, how would anyone stop it from pulling off political coups or military invasions on flimsy pretexts? Or vice versa?
k-mcgrady 13y ago
By spewing conspiracy theories like this you're taking away from the sacrifices a lot of people have made in Ukraine in order to campaign for what they believe is right. I'm not denying that the US and EU have an interest in the outcome of this but people don't give their lives for something they don't believe in. Please take your tin foil hat nonsense elsewhere.
dragonwriter 13y ago
That's a nice conspiracy theory, would you care to cite anything to support it?

by lmg643 13y ago

visakanv 13y ago

What exactly can Obama do, though? Anybody have any clear ideas?

cwaniak 13y ago
This dude never knows what to do. That's the problem. With Bush as a President Putin just wouldn't dare.
- afterburner 13y ago
  Do you remember this actual war Russia fought and won during Bush's tenure? Didn't think so. The US's forces were tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq during that time, Putin had even more leeway than he does now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war
  - cwaniak 13y ago
    What are you talking about???? Bush kept building US bases in plenty of ex-USSR republics day and night. He kept Putin by the balls. I'm an US citizen in Poland now. Bush wanted to build anti-ballistic shield in Poland that would render this country along Czech Republich untouchable by the Ruskies. First decision Obama made? He scrapped the whole deal in order not to make Russia feel bad. You have no idea how pissed of Poles are about that development. Strong president wouldn't do that. Strong President would build this freaking shield here and also in Ukraince. Just in case. And what about Syria? Huh? Obama just does what Putin says. That's whole Syria thing. Putin said, Obama did. WTF??? Is he a pussie or a president of the United States of America? He lacks balls in confrontation with America enemies who do whatever hell they want. And what is this now? Obama says on Friday, hey Putin there will be grave consequences if you involve yourself militarily in Ukraine. And what happens the very next day? What happens??Putin ignores this kid and his funny twitter posts and officially orders his army to invade Ukraine. Nobody treats this weakling seriously. Just let him go back to his community and smoke pot and leave politics to politicians with balls.
    - lotsofmangos 13y ago
      How does an anti-ballistic shield help against tanks then? The plan for anti-ballistic launchers in eastern europe are to protect the USA against long range launches, not to protect eastern europe from ground troops.
      - cwaniak 13y ago
        OMG, the shield requires personnel to run it. So when you invade a country, you need to take into account there might be casualties among US serviceman. Now this is really risky. Another point, that's pretty simple: with the shield you can nuke Ruskies and they can't nuke you. Quite a difference compared to the current situation which is a direct result of Obama being soft on Putin.
- us0r 13y ago
  So he should start a war with a nuclear power?
  - cwaniak 13y ago
    Oh no, definitely not. Now it's too late. For years this weakling (Obama) have been porting an image of a weakling and that's the problem. There are plenty of examples: Syria and the red-line with chemical weapons usage. That was a red-line, we were supposed to do something once it's crossed. So it was crossed and what Obama did? Listened to Putin who said don't invade!!! He listened to Putin! So Syria is lost because he is weak. He'd rather listen to Russian President than to keep his word to the international community. Another example: Bush was in the process of building anti-missile shield in Poland and Czech Republic. The shield would render the countries untouchable by the Ruskies. And what happened next? Obama won election and to "improve relations with Russia" sold our allies in Eastern Europe, scrapped the already signed deal regarding building the shield on the territory of our NATO allies, just not to worry Putin. These are just 2 examples I have no time to spend here to make up for your lack of interest in reading international news in the past few years. The point is this: if you promote such image of such a weakling to a bully like Putin, you will get hit. But, again it's too late now. We'd need to have McCain to fix that. None of that (shield in Eastern Europe, Syria) would ever happen with McCain or Bush leading the country.
    - visakanv 13y ago
      "None of that (shield in Eastern Europe, Syria) would ever happen with McCain or Bush leading the country." How are you so certain? =\
      - cwaniak 13y ago
        Because under Bush shield building was already in process. There were US soldiers on the Polish ground literally building the damn thing. Then Obama went weak on Putin, broke US promise towards its Eastern European NATO allies, and stopped the process in its tracks. Great job!!!
crudbuster 13y ago
Obama is about to be pawnd by Putin. This is going to make him look extremely weak. If I was on his national security team, I would push for an immediate no-fly zone in Syria. Then, in March, when the Ukraine dissolves into 2 separate countries via referendum, the US will at least have gained something from Russia's blundering.
- ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
  Pawnd? WTF? So, Obama is an imperialist if he sends in troops or supports the Ukrainian government (and there's zero chance of the former happening) or he's a dunce who gets pawnd by Putin? Seems like you've been suckered in by the cult of tough guy macho Putin.
  - davidw 13y ago
    > Seems like you've been suckered Seems like, from your comment history, that you've been suckered into a Political Discussion on HN :-) As they say: "the only winning move is not to play the game"
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - crudbuster 13y ago
    He is a tough guy. He just invaded a country by force and effectively told Obama to shutup up and sit down. It's Obama's move now. If he does nothing now, will he also do nothing when North Korea rolls into the South? The thugs are watching and learning.
    - ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
      Except...Ukraine is in no way comparable to Korea. Maybe there are 30000 American troops in Ukraine that I didn't hear about?
      - 13y ago

ZanyProgrammer 13y ago

Citation needed. Name those advisors. Every country in teh world recognizes Crimea as being Ukraine. Russia has just announced its invading that.

lmg643 13y ago
Victoria Nuland, the woman who was caught on the leaked tape saying "F*ck the EU", essentially because the EU was not quite as enthusiastic about supporting further action, was the principal deputy foreign policy adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland Obama has a lot of stuff he has to deal with on a daily basis - listening to the audio, it would make sense that she is calling the shots on a daily basis. you can hear her saying that she is going to arrange biden to give an "attaboy" which is basically "i need a guy in a leadership role to appear to bless this" not that biden is actually making any substantive decisions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o Her brother-in-law came up with Bush's "surge" strategy in 2007, her husband was a foreign policy advisor to mccain in 2008. i would guess that's not the full extent of their republican advisory work but that's all i found in a minute or two on wikipedia.
- ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
  So, you're left with one lowly ranking woman who you think is some mastermind of an evil cabal. "Her brother-in-law came up with Bush's "surge" strategy in 2007" TOTALLY irrelevant here. Logical fallacy violated. Non sequitor. EDIT: Seriously, you think Victoria Nuland, by herself, is pulling the strings of the American foreign policy?
  - lmg643 13y ago
    How is Victoria Nuland "low ranking"? You realize the title "secretary" does not mean they answer phones and schedule appointments? Here's the state department org chart. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/dos/99494.htm http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/dos/99494.htm The assistant secretary position she holds is responsible for that area, and two links below the secretary of state.

foobarqux 13y ago

> I thought Obama was supposed to be the anti-imperialist replacement for Bush? America has been imperialist since WWII. It has nothing to do with the sitting president.

MarkTee 13y ago
America has been imperialist since the 1800s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War

pron 13y ago

"We set up riots over there": Who? How? I don't know much about this conflict, but neither Russia nor the Ukraine are democracies in the Western sense of the word. I've been to Ukraine once. It felt like the Wild West only without the code of honor you see in the movies.

terranstyler 13y ago
Last time I checked I didn't see any democracy in the Western sense of the word in the western world. Except for Switzerland maybe Examples: Tapping phones without warrant Searching homes without without warrant A policy of guilty until proven innocent Torture
- pron 13y ago
  Obviously we have much to live up to. Democracy has always been more ideal than reality. But societies differ in their place along a "democracy" spectrum, and Russia and the Ukraine are much farther from that ideal than the west.
  - terranstyler 13y ago
    I know, but historically compared there were times when the above 4 "non-democratic behaviors" didn't occur (or they occurred less frequently or at least we didn't know). I see a tendency away from democracy which in my eyes destroys any credibility of the West to spearhead a democratic movement.
ankitml 13y ago
Why are they supposed to adhere to gold standard of western democracy? America seriously needs a reality check. Why such supreme belief in american(western) way of liberty. Rest of the world doesnt kill innocents in drones, guantanamo, libya, iraq ...
- tptacek 13y ago
  No, they kill them with paramilitary snipers firing into crowds of demonstrators.

firstOrder 13y ago

> We set up riots there Just looking at pictures of what was going on in Kiev, it was fairly obvious. Nothing is going on and suddenly thousands of people are bussed into Kiev. Large video screens are set up and professional placards are distributed. Of course the always tell-tale English language signs of the "we want freedom" type. It does not generate an effect of the type desired so they up the amount of violence with burning cars, Molotov cocktails, and then bring out the guns. Then they finally get some control and immediately begin a harsh crackdown on the eastern portion of the country, the massive existing Russian military bases that are within land which was Russian until 1954, and officially autonomous from 1992 on etc. Ukraine isn't the only country being pushed into the EU, while Spain and Greece stagnate economically, they have the same kind of neo-nazis that have been marching through Kiev come to the fore. Croatia just got pushed into the EU a few months ago, despite opposition, economic stagnation etc. That Americans and some western Europeans are taking advantage of the situation is of their nature. What is laughable is watching their stage-managed show of neo-nazis and well-financed by outsiders demonstrations and hearing nonsensical moralistic bombast about freedom, how awful Russia is to protect its ceded territory with its military bases etc.

lotsofmangos 13y ago
If they are neo-nazis, why are ex-IDF jews fighting for them? As platoon leader, Delta says he takes orders from activists connected to Svoboda, an ultra-nationalist party that has been frequently accused of anti-Semitism and whose members have been said to have had key positions in organizing the opposition protests. “I don’t belong [to Svoboda], but I take orders from their team. They know I’m Israeli, Jewish and an ex-IDF soldier. They call me ‘brother,’” he said. “What they’re saying about Svoboda is exaggerated, I know this for a fact. I don’t like them because they’re inconsistent, not because of [any] anti-Semitism issue.” http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114 http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114
- Elhana 13y ago
  If jews are happy with neo-nazis in Ukraine, why they are asking Netanyahu to send forces to protect them? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177920 http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177920

smsm42 13y ago

That's some pile of bullshit. Who are "we" that set up the riots? Those people stayed there since November, with wide popular support, risking life and limb. It is unbelievably obtuse to echo Kremlin propaganda that those were but the agents of US State Department. One has to be either exceptionally ignorant or exceptionally motivated to find a way to blame America to believe this canard. >>> Question is - who is the aggressor in this situation, really? Really? I guess that would be the country that sends the military to the territory of another country. But who would that be? There should be some way in here to blame America here and prove sending military into neighbor's territory is actually all fine, provided that neighbor did an unspeakable atrocity of potentially siding with America or EU. >>> I've got no stomach for war. Looks like you've got a lot of stomach for believing propaganda, as long as it matches your prejudices of America being the root of all evil. What a surprise would it be for you when it turns out believing propaganda spouted by an authoritarian dictator with ambitions for territorial conquest is not the surest way to achieve peace!

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rjzzleep 13y ago
>>> propaganda, as long as it matches your prejudices of America being the root of all evil. >>> believing propaganda spouted by an authoritarian dictator >>> ambitions for territorial conquest is not the surest way to achieve peace! wow dude, take a chill pill. how about you abide by what you're preaching? the us has military bases in more than 150 foreign countries
- smsm42 13y ago
  I do? Nice to know. American people must be really generous giving 150 military bases to a dude who isn't even US citizen. I wonder what they give to citizens - it must be at least 10 military bases in 300 countries! I'm still not sure what I'm supposed to abide though. I guess you call me to abstain from invading foreign countries? I was going to invade Poland tomorrow, but if you say so, I won't. Citizens of Poland, you're welcome.
13y ago

rjzzleep 13y ago

how? same way libya was bombed into oblivion. same way europe and the us can "legally" send guns to extremists in syria, that decapitate civilians, christians, and basically anyone who disagrees with the destabilization efforts. same way france can constantly do political coups in african countries without anyone caring. heavy german support of the opposition, eu sanctions of the country(i'm not sure how legal this really is) certainly helped as well. you call it backdoor. i call it coup. and if we're still alive in 50 years, and didn't bomb ourselves into oblivion given the course we're taking right now, we can probably read about these coups in controversial sections of wikipedia or wikileaks. watch ukraine get split up like so many other countries in the recent past. it's not about which party is more powerful. it's about which party wins the media war. if we had respected their sovereignty in any manner we would have let them play out their conflicts internally, but we didn't. we completely supported the opposition.

wismer 13y ago
Imagine if you will a US that is not imperialist; a foreign policy that is one of isolationism. Now imagine Russia as it exists today; expansionist and oligarchical. With no one strong enough to oppose it, how would anyone stop it from pulling off political coups or military invasions on flimsy pretexts? Or vice versa?

k-mcgrady 13y ago

By spewing conspiracy theories like this you're taking away from the sacrifices a lot of people have made in Ukraine in order to campaign for what they believe is right. I'm not denying that the US and EU have an interest in the outcome of this but people don't give their lives for something they don't believe in. Please take your tin foil hat nonsense elsewhere.

dragonwriter 13y ago

That's a nice conspiracy theory, would you care to cite anything to support it?