5 ms·

I love the closing statement: Linux vs Windows/MacOS, all over again. You gain Freedom by using an open platform, making life worse for yourself in a thousand

by gamache 17y ago

I love the closing statement: Linux vs Windows/MacOS, all over again. You gain Freedom by using an open platform, making life worse for yourself in a thousand tiny ways, any one of which can easily be dismissed, so they are. But it’s still worse. Zing. I recognize exactly what the author is talking about.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
tc 17y ago
I recognize what he's talking about too, but having given both sides a serious whirl, my life is still definitely better for free software. Years ago Linux desktop usage was a bit of a drag. But at the time, Windows servers were so much worse that as an integrated system, you were still net ahead. Now that my printers, scanners, and peripherals have all worked without hassle for years there isn't even a trade off. Rather, I shake my head while watching people fight with driver wizard CDs.
- dkarl 17y ago
  I agree. Desktop Linux is a great source of hope for struggling platforms. Even if it isn't for Aunt Millie, it has gone from being embarrassingly bad to being [a couple of] my favorite desktop environment[s]. Here's hoping Android follows the same trajectory. (It's certainly starting in the same place.)
  - antonovka 17y ago
    Linux is only a reasonable desktop if you're only spending your time in a terminal, using emacs/vi/eclipse/netbeans/etc. Before moving to Mac OS X from Linux/BSD desktops, I failed to appreciate the value of polished, non-developer software. Now, I regularly tear my hair out trying to interact with Linux users. From diagram software (OmniGraffle/Visio) to accounting software (QuickBooks) to billing software (Billings by Marketcircle), Linux just doesn't have the solid, polished applications, and it interoperates exceptionally poorly in environments where Mac OS X and Windows get along just fine. For example -- I can easily share diagrams with Visio users, but Dia is not a replacement for Visio/OmniGraffle and won't do the trick. How am I supposed to diagram with Linux users? Use dot/graphviz and create remarkably ugly diagrams? If I had to assign blame for the lack of quality applications, I'd say that the APIs are unstable and inconsistent, there's no standard application API (gnome vs. kde/qt vs. straight qt vs. wxwidgets), the user market just doesn't exist, and that it's difficult to mix the GPL / free software world with expensive development that requires professional UI, design, and art work, and all the other components of a polished end-user product. End-users don't buy 'support'. Of course, this is an unpopular opinion among free software advocates. As soon as you figure out how we can share diagrams that I want to place in my LaTeX documents, interact with artists producing photoshop/illustrator files, and modify complex word documents sent by lawyers without losing required document meta-data -- let me know.
    - dkarl 17y ago
      So Linux works for me and not for you.... Like I said, if Android reaches that point, I'll be happy ;-)
    - _pi 17y ago
      I'd like to see you try to get interoperability between Billings by Marketcircle and Peachtree by Sage, or with Quickbooks and Money Dance. Or by one version of Office and another. What you describe plagues all software. No one gives enough of a shit to make everything interoperable and lazy programmers will always make their own lazy file formats which are undocumented because they are lazy. The problem is how much involvement people have with their code. What is "professional UI"? How is a UI Professional? What qualities make a UI Professional? That's a pretty ambiguous qualifier.
    - altano 17y ago
      Holy shit, you just called Quickbooks solid and polished. I'm floored.
      - antonovka 17y ago
        Compared to the open source alternatives, it is. It seems to require a paycheck to convince anyone to produce feature complete business accounting software, and even then the A-list individuals are probably otherwise occupied with more enjoyable projects.
      - redorb 17y ago
        I upgraded my company from 2003 quickbooks , to 2008 manufacturing addition - its actually very polished. But yeah I understand the feeling ' from the older versions they were lacking.
  - mechanical_fish 17y ago
    Desktop Linux evolved on commodity hardware, and the presence of that hardware is a huge reason for its success. The hardware is built to a uniform worldwide standard (established and enforced, during its crucial early years, by a single company: Microsoft) and is developed with money that is recouped by selling millions of units to Windows users. In the phone market, such a large, self-perpetuating commodity hardware platform has yet to evolve. The market is heavily balkanized. It's under the control of multiple carriers whose rules determine exactly what will be sold and where. It's a rather different universe from that in which Linux evolved.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
_pi 17y ago
I'd say that Freedom is a good price to fool around, after you break $200 for an iPhone + Contract price, + $100 for SDK, + $1,000 for a basic Macbook for development (AFAIK you can only use Mac to develop for iPhone) you've got a $1,300 investment. I'd think that anyone serious about writing a iPhone program would do it after spending that much capital, however not everyone is willing to spend that much cash to fool around. The difference is that after that level of monetary involvement people want to make it back, or just want to make a product (IE, I spend $1,300 on nothing). However it stops people who wish to make a serious product but don't wish to be so financially involved. IMO, Android hasn't really launched yet, and Google isn't pushing hard enough to counter the iPhone.
- bkudria 17y ago
  The Mac Mini is a cheaper development box.
  - _pi 17y ago
    Okay so say 600 + 200 + 100 + contract, still well over a thousand for what the kill you with on a contract.
    - tvon 17y ago
      $300-$400 on eBay.
      - _pi 17y ago
        The point is even if you get everything used and at eBay pricing, you still have to buy the SDK and you still have to be financially involved.
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
- icefox 17y ago
  That Macbook can be used for many other things besides iphone development. In fact many developers I know already have a mac so for them it is $0. And unlike the random BestBuy laptop that you can get if you don't like the macbook you can actually sell it and get a good chunk of money back.
freetard 17y ago
I use linux as my primary desktop for work and home, I make a nice living, get things done quickly and never ever need to hack anything to make things work (ubuntu+intel laptop). Sure, if you get a laptop that's not linux friendly then it will be harder (to install) but that's not a fair comparison to windows/mac. Try getting a hackintosh to work, it's much harder then getting ubuntu to work on an nvidia/ati+broadcom wifi laptop or even on a mac.

by gamache 17y ago

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

tc 17y ago

I recognize what he's talking about too, but having given both sides a serious whirl, my life is still definitely better for free software. Years ago Linux desktop usage was a bit of a drag. But at the time, Windows servers were so much worse that as an integrated system, you were still net ahead. Now that my printers, scanners, and peripherals have all worked without hassle for years there isn't even a trade off. Rather, I shake my head while watching people fight with driver wizard CDs.

dkarl 17y ago
I agree. Desktop Linux is a great source of hope for struggling platforms. Even if it isn't for Aunt Millie, it has gone from being embarrassingly bad to being [a couple of] my favorite desktop environment[s]. Here's hoping Android follows the same trajectory. (It's certainly starting in the same place.)
- antonovka 17y ago
  Linux is only a reasonable desktop if you're only spending your time in a terminal, using emacs/vi/eclipse/netbeans/etc. Before moving to Mac OS X from Linux/BSD desktops, I failed to appreciate the value of polished, non-developer software. Now, I regularly tear my hair out trying to interact with Linux users. From diagram software (OmniGraffle/Visio) to accounting software (QuickBooks) to billing software (Billings by Marketcircle), Linux just doesn't have the solid, polished applications, and it interoperates exceptionally poorly in environments where Mac OS X and Windows get along just fine. For example -- I can easily share diagrams with Visio users, but Dia is not a replacement for Visio/OmniGraffle and won't do the trick. How am I supposed to diagram with Linux users? Use dot/graphviz and create remarkably ugly diagrams? If I had to assign blame for the lack of quality applications, I'd say that the APIs are unstable and inconsistent, there's no standard application API (gnome vs. kde/qt vs. straight qt vs. wxwidgets), the user market just doesn't exist, and that it's difficult to mix the GPL / free software world with expensive development that requires professional UI, design, and art work, and all the other components of a polished end-user product. End-users don't buy 'support'. Of course, this is an unpopular opinion among free software advocates. As soon as you figure out how we can share diagrams that I want to place in my LaTeX documents, interact with artists producing photoshop/illustrator files, and modify complex word documents sent by lawyers without losing required document meta-data -- let me know.
  - dkarl 17y ago
    So Linux works for me and not for you.... Like I said, if Android reaches that point, I'll be happy ;-)
  - _pi 17y ago
    I'd like to see you try to get interoperability between Billings by Marketcircle and Peachtree by Sage, or with Quickbooks and Money Dance. Or by one version of Office and another. What you describe plagues all software. No one gives enough of a shit to make everything interoperable and lazy programmers will always make their own lazy file formats which are undocumented because they are lazy. The problem is how much involvement people have with their code. What is "professional UI"? How is a UI Professional? What qualities make a UI Professional? That's a pretty ambiguous qualifier.
  - altano 17y ago
    Holy shit, you just called Quickbooks solid and polished. I'm floored.
    - antonovka 17y ago
      Compared to the open source alternatives, it is. It seems to require a paycheck to convince anyone to produce feature complete business accounting software, and even then the A-list individuals are probably otherwise occupied with more enjoyable projects.
    - redorb 17y ago
      I upgraded my company from 2003 quickbooks , to 2008 manufacturing addition - its actually very polished. But yeah I understand the feeling ' from the older versions they were lacking.
- mechanical_fish 17y ago
  Desktop Linux evolved on commodity hardware, and the presence of that hardware is a huge reason for its success. The hardware is built to a uniform worldwide standard (established and enforced, during its crucial early years, by a single company: Microsoft) and is developed with money that is recouped by selling millions of units to Windows users. In the phone market, such a large, self-perpetuating commodity hardware platform has yet to evolve. The market is heavily balkanized. It's under the control of multiple carriers whose rules determine exactly what will be sold and where. It's a rather different universe from that in which Linux evolved.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

_pi 17y ago

I'd say that Freedom is a good price to fool around, after you break $200 for an iPhone + Contract price, + $100 for SDK, + $1,000 for a basic Macbook for development (AFAIK you can only use Mac to develop for iPhone) you've got a $1,300 investment. I'd think that anyone serious about writing a iPhone program would do it after spending that much capital, however not everyone is willing to spend that much cash to fool around. The difference is that after that level of monetary involvement people want to make it back, or just want to make a product (IE, I spend $1,300 on nothing). However it stops people who wish to make a serious product but don't wish to be so financially involved. IMO, Android hasn't really launched yet, and Google isn't pushing hard enough to counter the iPhone.

bkudria 17y ago
The Mac Mini is a cheaper development box.
- _pi 17y ago
  Okay so say 600 + 200 + 100 + contract, still well over a thousand for what the kill you with on a contract.
  - tvon 17y ago
    $300-$400 on eBay.
    - _pi 17y ago
      The point is even if you get everything used and at eBay pricing, you still have to buy the SDK and you still have to be financially involved.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
icefox 17y ago
That Macbook can be used for many other things besides iphone development. In fact many developers I know already have a mac so for them it is $0. And unlike the random BestBuy laptop that you can get if you don't like the macbook you can actually sell it and get a good chunk of money back.

freetard 17y ago

I use linux as my primary desktop for work and home, I make a nice living, get things done quickly and never ever need to hack anything to make things work (ubuntu+intel laptop). Sure, if you get a laptop that's not linux friendly then it will be harder (to install) but that's not a fair comparison to windows/mac. Try getting a hackintosh to work, it's much harder then getting ubuntu to work on an nvidia/ati+broadcom wifi laptop or even on a mac.