7 ms·

Can 10,000 hours of practice make you an expert?

41 points by akandiah 13y ago

vlasev 13y ago
You are a little over a year old 10000 hours into your life and you are hardly and expert at that point :P
- Blahah 13y ago
  At that age most babies are experts at getting their parents to do everything for them...
- ctdonath 13y ago
  I'd say going from total incompetence to walking, communicating, and generally surviving despite minimal training assistance is pretty darned successful.
tokenadult 13y ago
The usual saying is that "the adjective is the enemy of the noun," but on this issue, you shouldn't think about "practice" except in combination with the word "deliberate." What Dan McLaughlin, the amateur golfer who is trying to become an expert golfer, is doing is testing out the idea that sufficiently structured and systematic practice with a coach can turn a moderately interested, not particularly talented average performer into an expert performer in the domain of playing golf. The research base that developed the term "deliberate practice," (and, for that matter, more rigorously defined "expertise") comes from K. Anders Ericsson[1] and colleagues who contributed to the The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance (2006), a book[2] summarizing research in many domains of human performance. There are a lot of popular books on these ideas, but only a few take care to distinguish deliberate practice from playful engagement or routine performance by an amateur, and only a few look carefully at the definition of "expert" performance. What's rigorously defined as "deliberate practice" (with coaching and monitoring of fine details of performance) is very hard to do long-term for more than four hours per day, which is why the "ten-year rule" was the original expression of some of the earliest findings on the development of expertise. Your sleeping hours don't count (directly) for development of expertise, nor eating nor hours spent on other daily activities, so it takes years to accumulate 10,000 hours of deliberate practice with necessary rest and play in between sessions of practice. [1] http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html [2] http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/psychology/cognition/cambridge-handbook-expertise-and-expert-performance http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/psychology/cog...
- LaPingvino 13y ago
  playful engagement can also be useful or even important. I think open-mindedness is more important here: you need to be able to absorb new concepts and accept experience into your action during the practice. I think that's why people with autism (looking at it through the Intense World glasses) can learn some things really fast, although they don't intentionally train certain things.
  - zemvpferreira 13y ago
    Playful engagement is certainly important, especially if you're practicing skills outside of a structured, measurable, competitive activity, but I'd question anything being more important to mastery than deliberate practice: Is it my bias or are successful competitors almost always very serious during practice, and relaxed after winning "matches"?
- jimhefferon 13y ago
  Can you recommend an overview? I could, for instance, read the Cambridge book but does it have an overview article or is a collection of individual areas articles?
- read 13y ago
  From the article: Maybe talented people just practise more and try harder at the thing they're already good at - because they enjoy it? There's a profound implication here: that you can train yourself to enjoy something you originally didn't. And even if it's no less hard of a problem than it is to make yourself a 10,000-hour expert in something, it's one with a broader impact.
  - joshkaufman 13y ago
    I recently wrote a book on this topic[1][2], and you're quite right - most people seem to get wrapped up in the status that surrounds the idea of expertise when the real value of this research is what it tells us about how to go about acquiring new skills for personal or professional use. As you mentioned, practicing to the point of enjoying the skill is the most effective strategy. If you can reach the point where practicing is fun, you're much more likely to continue leveling up. Adult learners typically find the first few hours of practicing a new skill extremely frustrating, and a very low percentage will complete even 2-3 hours of deliberate practice if the skill is complex, ambiguous, or challenging. Somewhere around hours 3-10, however, you start to see clear improvements, and pushing through frustration is much less of a factor. That's the point where you start seeing clear results. In my research/experience, the threshold for acquiring new skills for personal or professional use is somewhere around 20 hours. That's not "expertise" - it's being able to produce a desired result or enjoy the experience. In the vast majority of cases, you don't need to be an "expert" to derive value from practicing new skills. Since most people have a hard time pushing through the early frustration barrier, 10-20 hours of strategic, deliberate practice will also give you a surprising level of competence compared to other people. All it really takes is having a smart strategy that ensures (1) you invest those early hours of practice in acquiring the most commonly-used sub-skills, (2) you alter your environment to make it as easy as possible to remove distractions, sit down, and do the work. [1] Book: http://first20hours.com http://first20hours.com [2] Overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MgBikgcWnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MgBikgcWnY
lotsofmangos 13y ago
It can. 48 hours might also make you an expert, or a lifetime, or you may never become an expert, or you might be born an expert. I was born an expert in screaming very loudly and getting lost, for instance. It depends on who you are and what you are trying to become an expert in.
summerdown2 13y ago
Well, one of the best examples of "practice leads to excellence" is given by the story of Lazlo Polgar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r > László is an expert on chess theory and owns over 10,000 chess books. He is interested in the proper method of rearing children, believing that "geniuses are made, not born". Before he had any children, he wrote a book entitled Bring Up Genius!, and sought a wife to help him carry out his experiment. He found one in Klara, a schoolteacher, who lived in a Hungarian-speaking enclave in Ukraine. He married her in the USSR and brought her to Hungary. He home-schooled their three daughters, primarily in chess, and all three went on to become strong players. Their three daughters: Sofia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zs%C3%B3fia_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zs%C3%B3fia_Polg%C3%A1r > In 1989, at the age of 14, she stunned the chess world by her performance in a tournament in Rome, which became known as the "Sack of Rome". She won the tournament, which included several strong grandmasters, with a score of 8½ out of 9. According to the Chessmetrics rating system, her performance rating was 2735;[3] one of the strongest performances in history by a 14-year-old. Susan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Polgar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Polgar > On the July 1984 FIDE Rating List, at the age of 15, she became the top-ranked woman player in the world, and remained ranked in the top three for the next 23 years. She was also the first woman in history to break the gender barrier by qualifying for the 1986 "Men's" World Championship And Judit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r > Judit Polgár (born 23 July 1976) is a Hungarian chess grandmaster. She is by far the strongest female chess player in history.[1] In 1991, Polgár achieved the title of Grandmaster at the age of 15 years and 4 months, the youngest person to do so until then.
- skywhopper 13y ago
  Hard to separate nature from nurture when you school your kids on your own area of expertise. Had he tried to make them into expert musicians or downhill skiers, his experiment might have more weight.
  - pixl97 13y ago
    How about a child adopted at a young age. Trying to teach the kids something you are not is a different proposition altogether.
coldtea 13y ago
Let's put it this way: people spend more than 10,000 of their lives talking and writing (including hours spent at school), and the majority can hardly put together a good sentense. Heck, an awful lot cannot even distinguish between you're and your.
- sudhirj 13y ago
  Or spell 'sentence'.
  - haukilup 13y ago
    Are you trying to make a point with your comment, or simply pointing out the error? Either way, I don't see much value in your comment at present.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Well, I'm not a native/10.000 hours english speaker, so not much irony there. And even if I was, it would only help prove my point. It's a win-win mistake!
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  >>Let's put it this way: people spend more than 10,000 of their lives talking and writing (including hours spent at school), and the majority can hardly put together a good sentense. If this wasn't a joke the irony is brilliant. * sentence *10,000 hours not 10,000 lives
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >If this wasn't a joke the irony is brilliant. Wasn't a joke. It sure does prove my point though [1] >10,000 hours not 10,000 lives Actually both hours and lives. I meant to write: "spend more than 10,000 hours of their lives" (or "life", if you wish). [1] Well it doesn't, really, since I'm not a native speaker, so I haven't had those "10,000 hours" of honing my english. Plus, those are typos from hasty typing on a web textarea, not things I genuinely confuse.
- 13y ago
_pmf_ 13y ago
I think that deliberate practice is both better and worse than actual practice; you need both.
skywhopper 13y ago
10,000 hours (or thereabouts) of practice is one prerequisite. But you have to practice the right things. And for most people that means there needs to be some structure to their practice, some feedback from existing experts. Otherwise, how will you know what needs improvement or re-adjustment. In the fantastic book "Lessons on the Fundamentals of Go", Toshiro Kageyama addresses this very topic in the introduction saying, "Of course one cannot make progress in any discipline without effort. 'There is no pleasure without pain.' Pleasure is progress, and pain the pain of effort. Study in the wrong way, however, and the result may be just pain with no pleasure at all. One must, without fail, learn the correct way to study."
- pixl97 13y ago
  I think the saying goes --Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Agreed. My musician son practices a new piece slowly, deliberately, speeding up as he gets it down. Takes a day or two for a piece that way - no wasted time unlearning/reworking early screw-ups that became routine.
rjzzleep 13y ago
my experience has been that you can get pretty close to becoming an expert with practicing on your own. but a lot of times i reached a point where i needed support to break a certain barrier. when i say support i mean an expert. someone that can help make things better. sometimes though, this is not true. sometimes too much invalid practice lead to the expert saying i don't like to deal with this sort of stuff. "i have make you unlearn a lot of the mistakes you learned before." this is extremely true in society. while you might argue that the following is not practice and expertise, it's classic case of mental practice from invalid societal patterns https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7302645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7302645
wingerlang 13y ago
This guys [0] is trying this with gold. He should hit 10.000 hours at December 2016. I read about it a year or two ago and put it into my calendar. http://thedanplan.com/about/ http://thedanplan.com/about/
- igravious 13y ago
  Uh, that's the same guy the article mentions. And it's not gold, it's golf. And it's not guys, it's guy's. But apart from that, you're spot on.
  - wingerlang 13y ago
    Oh, sorry about that. I just came home from a looong bus ride when writing that.
ithkuil 13y ago
"An expert is someone who's far away from home and gives advice" -- anonymous
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- tydok 13y ago
  Jack of all trades, master of none.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
altero 13y ago
This is kind of sexist. It suggest anyone can become expert in a few years, yet women are clearly discriminated everywhere.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
You can't become an expert without staying in "the Beginner's mind" (as in the Zen meaning of the phrase).
thrill 13y ago
There is a difference in practicing for 10,000 hours and practicing for 1 hour 10,000 times.
Codhisattva 13y ago
Gladwell's over-simplification is a curse on us all.
tomphoolery 13y ago
I've had mixed feelings on this. On one hand, I believe that "practice" in this sense is greatly misunderstood. This word normally implies a kind of deliberate action, that you intend to practice for an hour or so. In reality, most of our productive practice comes from the times that you probably don't know you're practicing. For example, when you sing in the shower, you are exercising your vocal chords and making them stronger. That's practice. When you drum the beat of the song on your desk, or even write a new one, and comprehend the rhythms...that's practice. Simply hearing a song could be considered "practice" for a composer. When I was in school, and later in conservatory, the teachers always gave us hard minimums for practice: 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour...every day. This seemed like peanuts to me, because how could anyone really not practice for that short of a time and still feel as though they are interested in music? On the other hand, I do believe in what these people say. Talent is an illusion. It's a way other people describe the long and arduous work you've done to get to this point. In many ways, when people say I am "talented" at something, I find it slightly demoralizing...because it rejects all of the intense hard work and thousands of hours that I put into my craft in order to get to this point (and I don't even believe I'm really a good enough programmer OR musician to be talking from any kind of pulpit). But I don't get too bent out of shape, because I know that deep down, they do understand what "talent" really means.

41 points by akandiah 13y ago

vlasev 13y ago

You are a little over a year old 10000 hours into your life and you are hardly and expert at that point :P

Blahah 13y ago
At that age most babies are experts at getting their parents to do everything for them...
ctdonath 13y ago
I'd say going from total incompetence to walking, communicating, and generally surviving despite minimal training assistance is pretty darned successful.

tokenadult 13y ago

The usual saying is that "the adjective is the enemy of the noun," but on this issue, you shouldn't think about "practice" except in combination with the word "deliberate." What Dan McLaughlin, the amateur golfer who is trying to become an expert golfer, is doing is testing out the idea that sufficiently structured and systematic practice with a coach can turn a moderately interested, not particularly talented average performer into an expert performer in the domain of playing golf. The research base that developed the term "deliberate practice," (and, for that matter, more rigorously defined "expertise") comes from K. Anders Ericsson[1] and colleagues who contributed to the The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance (2006), a book[2] summarizing research in many domains of human performance. There are a lot of popular books on these ideas, but only a few take care to distinguish deliberate practice from playful engagement or routine performance by an amateur, and only a few look carefully at the definition of "expert" performance. What's rigorously defined as "deliberate practice" (with coaching and monitoring of fine details of performance) is very hard to do long-term for more than four hours per day, which is why the "ten-year rule" was the original expression of some of the earliest findings on the development of expertise. Your sleeping hours don't count (directly) for development of expertise, nor eating nor hours spent on other daily activities, so it takes years to accumulate 10,000 hours of deliberate practice with necessary rest and play in between sessions of practice. [1] http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html [2] http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/psychology/cognition/cambridge-handbook-expertise-and-expert-performance http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/psychology/cog...

LaPingvino 13y ago
playful engagement can also be useful or even important. I think open-mindedness is more important here: you need to be able to absorb new concepts and accept experience into your action during the practice. I think that's why people with autism (looking at it through the Intense World glasses) can learn some things really fast, although they don't intentionally train certain things.
- zemvpferreira 13y ago
  Playful engagement is certainly important, especially if you're practicing skills outside of a structured, measurable, competitive activity, but I'd question anything being more important to mastery than deliberate practice: Is it my bias or are successful competitors almost always very serious during practice, and relaxed after winning "matches"?
jimhefferon 13y ago
Can you recommend an overview? I could, for instance, read the Cambridge book but does it have an overview article or is a collection of individual areas articles?
read 13y ago
From the article: Maybe talented people just practise more and try harder at the thing they're already good at - because they enjoy it? There's a profound implication here: that you can train yourself to enjoy something you originally didn't. And even if it's no less hard of a problem than it is to make yourself a 10,000-hour expert in something, it's one with a broader impact.
- joshkaufman 13y ago
  I recently wrote a book on this topic[1][2], and you're quite right - most people seem to get wrapped up in the status that surrounds the idea of expertise when the real value of this research is what it tells us about how to go about acquiring new skills for personal or professional use. As you mentioned, practicing to the point of enjoying the skill is the most effective strategy. If you can reach the point where practicing is fun, you're much more likely to continue leveling up. Adult learners typically find the first few hours of practicing a new skill extremely frustrating, and a very low percentage will complete even 2-3 hours of deliberate practice if the skill is complex, ambiguous, or challenging. Somewhere around hours 3-10, however, you start to see clear improvements, and pushing through frustration is much less of a factor. That's the point where you start seeing clear results. In my research/experience, the threshold for acquiring new skills for personal or professional use is somewhere around 20 hours. That's not "expertise" - it's being able to produce a desired result or enjoy the experience. In the vast majority of cases, you don't need to be an "expert" to derive value from practicing new skills. Since most people have a hard time pushing through the early frustration barrier, 10-20 hours of strategic, deliberate practice will also give you a surprising level of competence compared to other people. All it really takes is having a smart strategy that ensures (1) you invest those early hours of practice in acquiring the most commonly-used sub-skills, (2) you alter your environment to make it as easy as possible to remove distractions, sit down, and do the work. [1] Book: http://first20hours.com http://first20hours.com [2] Overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MgBikgcWnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MgBikgcWnY

lotsofmangos 13y ago

It can. 48 hours might also make you an expert, or a lifetime, or you may never become an expert, or you might be born an expert. I was born an expert in screaming very loudly and getting lost, for instance. It depends on who you are and what you are trying to become an expert in.

summerdown2 13y ago

Well, one of the best examples of "practice leads to excellence" is given by the story of Lazlo Polgar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r > László is an expert on chess theory and owns over 10,000 chess books. He is interested in the proper method of rearing children, believing that "geniuses are made, not born". Before he had any children, he wrote a book entitled Bring Up Genius!, and sought a wife to help him carry out his experiment. He found one in Klara, a schoolteacher, who lived in a Hungarian-speaking enclave in Ukraine. He married her in the USSR and brought her to Hungary. He home-schooled their three daughters, primarily in chess, and all three went on to become strong players. Their three daughters: Sofia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zs%C3%B3fia_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zs%C3%B3fia_Polg%C3%A1r > In 1989, at the age of 14, she stunned the chess world by her performance in a tournament in Rome, which became known as the "Sack of Rome". She won the tournament, which included several strong grandmasters, with a score of 8½ out of 9. According to the Chessmetrics rating system, her performance rating was 2735;[3] one of the strongest performances in history by a 14-year-old. Susan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Polgar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Polgar > On the July 1984 FIDE Rating List, at the age of 15, she became the top-ranked woman player in the world, and remained ranked in the top three for the next 23 years. She was also the first woman in history to break the gender barrier by qualifying for the 1986 "Men's" World Championship And Judit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r > Judit Polgár (born 23 July 1976) is a Hungarian chess grandmaster. She is by far the strongest female chess player in history.[1] In 1991, Polgár achieved the title of Grandmaster at the age of 15 years and 4 months, the youngest person to do so until then.

skywhopper 13y ago
Hard to separate nature from nurture when you school your kids on your own area of expertise. Had he tried to make them into expert musicians or downhill skiers, his experiment might have more weight.
- pixl97 13y ago
  How about a child adopted at a young age. Trying to teach the kids something you are not is a different proposition altogether.

coldtea 13y ago

Let's put it this way: people spend more than 10,000 of their lives talking and writing (including hours spent at school), and the majority can hardly put together a good sentense. Heck, an awful lot cannot even distinguish between you're and your.

sudhirj 13y ago
Or spell 'sentence'.
- haukilup 13y ago
  Are you trying to make a point with your comment, or simply pointing out the error? Either way, I don't see much value in your comment at present.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Well, I'm not a native/10.000 hours english speaker, so not much irony there. And even if I was, it would only help prove my point. It's a win-win mistake!
k-mcgrady 13y ago
>>Let's put it this way: people spend more than 10,000 of their lives talking and writing (including hours spent at school), and the majority can hardly put together a good sentense. If this wasn't a joke the irony is brilliant. * sentence *10,000 hours not 10,000 lives
- coldtea 13y ago
  >If this wasn't a joke the irony is brilliant. Wasn't a joke. It sure does prove my point though [1] >10,000 hours not 10,000 lives Actually both hours and lives. I meant to write: "spend more than 10,000 hours of their lives" (or "life", if you wish). [1] Well it doesn't, really, since I'm not a native speaker, so I haven't had those "10,000 hours" of honing my english. Plus, those are typos from hasty typing on a web textarea, not things I genuinely confuse.
13y ago

_pmf_ 13y ago

I think that deliberate practice is both better and worse than actual practice; you need both.

skywhopper 13y ago

10,000 hours (or thereabouts) of practice is one prerequisite. But you have to practice the right things. And for most people that means there needs to be some structure to their practice, some feedback from existing experts. Otherwise, how will you know what needs improvement or re-adjustment. In the fantastic book "Lessons on the Fundamentals of Go", Toshiro Kageyama addresses this very topic in the introduction saying, "Of course one cannot make progress in any discipline without effort. 'There is no pleasure without pain.' Pleasure is progress, and pain the pain of effort. Study in the wrong way, however, and the result may be just pain with no pleasure at all. One must, without fail, learn the correct way to study."

pixl97 13y ago
I think the saying goes --Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Agreed. My musician son practices a new piece slowly, deliberately, speeding up as he gets it down. Takes a day or two for a piece that way - no wasted time unlearning/reworking early screw-ups that became routine.

rjzzleep 13y ago

my experience has been that you can get pretty close to becoming an expert with practicing on your own. but a lot of times i reached a point where i needed support to break a certain barrier. when i say support i mean an expert. someone that can help make things better. sometimes though, this is not true. sometimes too much invalid practice lead to the expert saying i don't like to deal with this sort of stuff. "i have make you unlearn a lot of the mistakes you learned before." this is extremely true in society. while you might argue that the following is not practice and expertise, it's classic case of mental practice from invalid societal patterns https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7302645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7302645

wingerlang 13y ago

This guys [0] is trying this with gold. He should hit 10.000 hours at December 2016. I read about it a year or two ago and put it into my calendar. http://thedanplan.com/about/ http://thedanplan.com/about/

igravious 13y ago
Uh, that's the same guy the article mentions. And it's not gold, it's golf. And it's not guys, it's guy's. But apart from that, you're spot on.
- wingerlang 13y ago
  Oh, sorry about that. I just came home from a looong bus ride when writing that.

ithkuil 13y ago

"An expert is someone who's far away from home and gives advice" -- anonymous

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

tydok 13y ago
Jack of all trades, master of none.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

altero 13y ago

This is kind of sexist. It suggest anyone can become expert in a few years, yet women are clearly discriminated everywhere.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

You can't become an expert without staying in "the Beginner's mind" (as in the Zen meaning of the phrase).

thrill 13y ago

There is a difference in practicing for 10,000 hours and practicing for 1 hour 10,000 times.

Codhisattva 13y ago

Gladwell's over-simplification is a curse on us all.

tomphoolery 13y ago

I've had mixed feelings on this. On one hand, I believe that "practice" in this sense is greatly misunderstood. This word normally implies a kind of deliberate action, that you intend to practice for an hour or so. In reality, most of our productive practice comes from the times that you probably don't know you're practicing. For example, when you sing in the shower, you are exercising your vocal chords and making them stronger. That's practice. When you drum the beat of the song on your desk, or even write a new one, and comprehend the rhythms...that's practice. Simply hearing a song could be considered "practice" for a composer. When I was in school, and later in conservatory, the teachers always gave us hard minimums for practice: 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour...every day. This seemed like peanuts to me, because how could anyone really not practice for that short of a time and still feel as though they are interested in music? On the other hand, I do believe in what these people say. Talent is an illusion. It's a way other people describe the long and arduous work you've done to get to this point. In many ways, when people say I am "talented" at something, I find it slightly demoralizing...because it rejects all of the intense hard work and thousands of hours that I put into my craft in order to get to this point (and I don't even believe I'm really a good enough programmer OR musician to be talking from any kind of pulpit). But I don't get too bent out of shape, because I know that deep down, they do understand what "talent" really means.