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Interesting fact presented in the beginning of the article: all the government funded research/companies went belly up. Food for thought: Is it because of the

Interesting fact presented in the beginning of the article: all the government funded research/companies went belly up. Food for thought: Is it because of the sheer difficulty of such ventures? Or is it because the money went to the wrong hands?

cobrausn 13y ago
Well, the article answers the question later on. Cosmin Laslau, Lux’s energy storage specialist, said there are profound differences between the past failures and Tesla’s new lithium-ion production effort. “Most importantly, the likes of A123 built Li-ion capacity first, and then waited forlornly for demand and partnerships that never came,” he said. “Tesla has taken the opposite approach: It started by creating the demand, unearthing a niche for luxury EVs powered by massive battery packs.”
- skywhopper 13y ago
  This makes sense. Domestic Li-ion manufacturing would be nice, but you won't generate more demand for batteries just by building new factories. What we need to spending money like those federal grants is on battery research. Capacity and charge time are major limiting factors on the growth of electric vehicles (not to mention the primary limiting factors in mobile computing performance as well). Finding new battery tech and improving existing tech is where the federal money should be flowing.
DaniFong 13y ago
I'm a founder of an energy storage company, Lightsail Energy. To say all government funded energy storage companies went belly up is an exaggeration. Many still survive, although you will note a strange anti-correlation between government funding and survival. In my opinion a lot of money did go in the wrong hands. The main problem is that the government is totally confused as to its actual funding strategy -- you need significant, continuous supplies of capital to develop and commercialize hard technology -- every time it fluctuates you impose major stresses and delays. In at least a few cases, the problem was that the government provided support, and thereafter withdrew it. This was most problematic for the DOE Government Loan Guarantee program -- after Solyndra (a major recipient) went belly up, the government called on their debt in a series of energy storage companies, particularly A123 and Beacon Power. That was the bankruptcy trigger. On the other hand, it is not exactly like those companies were doing so well anyway. They were fragile, though they might have had a bright future.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  > This was most problematic for the DOE Government Loan Guarantee program -- after Solyndra (a major recipient) went belly up, the government called on their debt in a series of energy storage companies, particularly A123 and Beacon Power. That was the bankruptcy trigger. Is it possible Tesla paid their DOE loan back early to prevent any volatility from that liability hanging out there?
  - DaniFong 13y ago
    Hard to speculate, but it probably gave them a lot of leverage.
- lotsofmangos 13y ago
  Hi, I've been following your company. You lot are amazing. That is all. :) edit - oh, I do have one thing to ask, how do you think your tech compares with Gravitypower http://www.gravitypower.net/ http://www.gravitypower.net/ and Isentropic http://www.isentropic.co.uk/ http://www.isentropic.co.uk/ ? edit 2 - and when can I expect to be able to buy a small one, say enough storage for my house? Or are you only doing the grid-scale?
  - DaniFong 13y ago
    Speaking as a engineer who generally applauds the competitive attempts but is sometimes freaked out by the technical challenges they put ahead of themselves... Gravity Power: I hope they have a good idea for how they can make and seal a giant concrete piston and boreshaft. I think engineered pumped hydro has a major edge on these guys -- and energy cache. Isentropic: potentially lower cost than us (gravel's not too expensive), but significantly more loss channels, so a tougher efficiency problem. Serious loss channel potential in the thermal gradient, plus both heat stores need to be pressurized in their main design. Wouldn't trade places with them, but maybe they'd say the same. We might eventually do a ~10kw version for homes or a ~100kw version for cars but that is very speculative / in the future. I am modestly excited by Ambri, Aquion, and Tesla.
- Egregore 13y ago
loceng 13y ago
"Is it because of the sheer difficulty of such ventures?" Keeping R&D alive is difficult, especially in a competitive market. You need to keep momentum going. One way to help success rate is through economies of scale. If you know or have a hunch you can sell huge volumes, then you can more safely put money towards the infrastructure that will bring down cost per unit - whether that's for a full vehicle, or individual parts like batteries for a vehicle.
baddox 13y ago
I don't know the details of these government funded companies, but it doesn't seem to surprising. I wouldn't expect a government funded restaurant to be able to compete with privately funded restaurants either. It's pretty basic economics regarding how incentives work.
- jjoonathan 13y ago
  Solyndra was beaten by government funded companies. Just not the US government.
danmaz74 13y ago
Food for thought: Tesla used government money too. Food for thought 2: Most tech startups go belly up.

cobrausn 13y ago

Well, the article answers the question later on. Cosmin Laslau, Lux’s energy storage specialist, said there are profound differences between the past failures and Tesla’s new lithium-ion production effort. “Most importantly, the likes of A123 built Li-ion capacity first, and then waited forlornly for demand and partnerships that never came,” he said. “Tesla has taken the opposite approach: It started by creating the demand, unearthing a niche for luxury EVs powered by massive battery packs.”

skywhopper 13y ago
This makes sense. Domestic Li-ion manufacturing would be nice, but you won't generate more demand for batteries just by building new factories. What we need to spending money like those federal grants is on battery research. Capacity and charge time are major limiting factors on the growth of electric vehicles (not to mention the primary limiting factors in mobile computing performance as well). Finding new battery tech and improving existing tech is where the federal money should be flowing.

DaniFong 13y ago

I'm a founder of an energy storage company, Lightsail Energy. To say all government funded energy storage companies went belly up is an exaggeration. Many still survive, although you will note a strange anti-correlation between government funding and survival. In my opinion a lot of money did go in the wrong hands. The main problem is that the government is totally confused as to its actual funding strategy -- you need significant, continuous supplies of capital to develop and commercialize hard technology -- every time it fluctuates you impose major stresses and delays. In at least a few cases, the problem was that the government provided support, and thereafter withdrew it. This was most problematic for the DOE Government Loan Guarantee program -- after Solyndra (a major recipient) went belly up, the government called on their debt in a series of energy storage companies, particularly A123 and Beacon Power. That was the bankruptcy trigger. On the other hand, it is not exactly like those companies were doing so well anyway. They were fragile, though they might have had a bright future.

toomuchtodo 13y ago
> This was most problematic for the DOE Government Loan Guarantee program -- after Solyndra (a major recipient) went belly up, the government called on their debt in a series of energy storage companies, particularly A123 and Beacon Power. That was the bankruptcy trigger. Is it possible Tesla paid their DOE loan back early to prevent any volatility from that liability hanging out there?
- DaniFong 13y ago
  Hard to speculate, but it probably gave them a lot of leverage.
lotsofmangos 13y ago
Hi, I've been following your company. You lot are amazing. That is all. :) edit - oh, I do have one thing to ask, how do you think your tech compares with Gravitypower http://www.gravitypower.net/ http://www.gravitypower.net/ and Isentropic http://www.isentropic.co.uk/ http://www.isentropic.co.uk/ ? edit 2 - and when can I expect to be able to buy a small one, say enough storage for my house? Or are you only doing the grid-scale?
- DaniFong 13y ago
  Speaking as a engineer who generally applauds the competitive attempts but is sometimes freaked out by the technical challenges they put ahead of themselves... Gravity Power: I hope they have a good idea for how they can make and seal a giant concrete piston and boreshaft. I think engineered pumped hydro has a major edge on these guys -- and energy cache. Isentropic: potentially lower cost than us (gravel's not too expensive), but significantly more loss channels, so a tougher efficiency problem. Serious loss channel potential in the thermal gradient, plus both heat stores need to be pressurized in their main design. Wouldn't trade places with them, but maybe they'd say the same. We might eventually do a ~10kw version for homes or a ~100kw version for cars but that is very speculative / in the future. I am modestly excited by Ambri, Aquion, and Tesla.
Egregore 13y ago

loceng 13y ago

"Is it because of the sheer difficulty of such ventures?" Keeping R&D alive is difficult, especially in a competitive market. You need to keep momentum going. One way to help success rate is through economies of scale. If you know or have a hunch you can sell huge volumes, then you can more safely put money towards the infrastructure that will bring down cost per unit - whether that's for a full vehicle, or individual parts like batteries for a vehicle.

baddox 13y ago

I don't know the details of these government funded companies, but it doesn't seem to surprising. I wouldn't expect a government funded restaurant to be able to compete with privately funded restaurants either. It's pretty basic economics regarding how incentives work.

jjoonathan 13y ago
Solyndra was beaten by government funded companies. Just not the US government.

danmaz74 13y ago

Food for thought: Tesla used government money too. Food for thought 2: Most tech startups go belly up.