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I did some quick research. Nothing definitive, but that's not what my research suggests. TL;DR Gold-as-currency first used in Egypt 4,000 BCE; Egypt implements

I did some quick research. Nothing definitive, but that's not what my research suggests. TL;DR Gold-as-currency first used in Egypt 4,000 BCE; Egypt implements a commodity-tax somewhere between 3,500 - 20 BCE; Coinage first cited between in Lydia 700 - 550 BCE. Could you give me an example, like I originally asked? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money#Early_usage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money#Early_usage > It has long been assumed that metals, where available, were favored for use as proto-money over such commodities as cattle, cowry shells, or salt, because metals are at once durable, portable, and easily divisible.[45] The use of gold as proto-money has been traced back to the fourth millennium BC when the Egyptians used gold bars of a set weight as a medium of exchange,[citation needed] as had been done earlier in Mesopotamia with silver bars.[citation needed] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia > According to Herodotus, the Lydians were the first people to use gold and silver coins and the first to establish retail shops in permanent locations.[12] ... > The dating of these first stamped coins is one of the most frequently debated topics of ancient numismatics,[14] with dates ranging from 700 BC to 550 BC, but the most common opinion is that they were minted at or near the beginning of the reign of King Alyattes (sometimes referred to incorrectly as Alyattes II), who ruled Lydia c. 610-550 BC.[15] ... http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt#Early_history http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt#Early_history > Ancient Egypt, or the Egyptian Empire, was a society that began about 3500 BC and lasted until 20 BC when it was invaded by the Roman Empire. > Ancient Egypt had a lot of different taxes, but there was no real money, so people paid each other with goods or work. The person who watched the tax collection was a scribe, and every tax collector in Egypt had to tell him every day how many taxes they had collected. Each person paid different taxes based on the work that they did: craftsmen paid in goods, hunters and fishermen paid with food, and every single household in the country had to pay a labour tax every year by helping with work for the country like mining or for canals. A lot of rich Egyptians paid poorer people to do this for them.

philwelch 13y ago
Fair enough. I guess "citation needed" passages from Wikipedia about "proto-money" in ancient Egyptian bartering are totally equivalent to the gold standard.
- Double_Cast 13y ago
  1. My citations are sketchy. Can you do better? 3rd time I've asked. 2. Does the article call the gold bars "proto-money"? Sure, but now we're just bickering over definitions. The same article says the Egyptians used gold bars as a medium of exchange, which I believe exactly fits what we've been discussing. If you define "currency" to mean something other than a "medium of exchange", then what is the distinction and how is it relevant to Bitcoin? 3. And this brings us back to the original point of contention ITT: Why do you believe a a successful currency (or successful medium of exchange) requires a centralized "standard" despite historical evidence of decentralized "commodity money"?
  - philwelch 13y ago
    I'll concede that at many points in human history people used precious metals as currency without the involvement of a government, but for centuries--since the Roman Empire, to name one example--currencies have been established largely through government fiat even when based on some commodity. ("Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"). The "gold standard", in the US, was established by federal law in 1900, replacing bimetallism, the previous basis. Respectfully, I don't see how the use of precious metals in Ancient Egypt is relevant to the role of currency in a post-industrial world.
    - Double_Cast 13y ago
      > in a post-industrial world. It appears our disagreement lies in "post-industrial". My first thought was "I don't see how the use of precious metals in Ancient Egypt is any different from the role of currency in a post-industrial world." Now, asserting our myopia leaves us nowhere. But as long as this thread is already, I'd like to dig deeper. Given the Mt. Gox debacle, I'm assuming your line of reasoning is related to trust. E.g. "the purely electronic form of bitcoin allows it to be stolen on a scale not feasible with more tangible forms of money." But then, do banks prevent the laundering of USD electronically? Or perhaps "who will insure against theft if not the government?" But then, who insured against theft prior to Hamilton's creation of the U.S. National Bank? But at this point, I'm fully immersed in strawman land.

philwelch 13y ago

Fair enough. I guess "citation needed" passages from Wikipedia about "proto-money" in ancient Egyptian bartering are totally equivalent to the gold standard.

Double_Cast 13y ago
1. My citations are sketchy. Can you do better? 3rd time I've asked. 2. Does the article call the gold bars "proto-money"? Sure, but now we're just bickering over definitions. The same article says the Egyptians used gold bars as a medium of exchange, which I believe exactly fits what we've been discussing. If you define "currency" to mean something other than a "medium of exchange", then what is the distinction and how is it relevant to Bitcoin? 3. And this brings us back to the original point of contention ITT: Why do you believe a a successful currency (or successful medium of exchange) requires a centralized "standard" despite historical evidence of decentralized "commodity money"?
- philwelch 13y ago
  I'll concede that at many points in human history people used precious metals as currency without the involvement of a government, but for centuries--since the Roman Empire, to name one example--currencies have been established largely through government fiat even when based on some commodity. ("Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"). The "gold standard", in the US, was established by federal law in 1900, replacing bimetallism, the previous basis. Respectfully, I don't see how the use of precious metals in Ancient Egypt is relevant to the role of currency in a post-industrial world.
  - Double_Cast 13y ago
    > in a post-industrial world. It appears our disagreement lies in "post-industrial". My first thought was "I don't see how the use of precious metals in Ancient Egypt is any different from the role of currency in a post-industrial world." Now, asserting our myopia leaves us nowhere. But as long as this thread is already, I'd like to dig deeper. Given the Mt. Gox debacle, I'm assuming your line of reasoning is related to trust. E.g. "the purely electronic form of bitcoin allows it to be stolen on a scale not feasible with more tangible forms of money." But then, do banks prevent the laundering of USD electronically? Or perhaps "who will insure against theft if not the government?" But then, who insured against theft prior to Hamilton's creation of the U.S. National Bank? But at this point, I'm fully immersed in strawman land.