9 ms·

So this guy is a marketer. His posts are no longer than 500 words. So he sits on his computer for 20 minutes has a rant and he gets on the front page of hacker

by Ardit20 17y ago

So this guy is a marketer. His posts are no longer than 500 words. So he sits on his computer for 20 minutes has a rant and he gets on the front page of hacker news. Has he said anything? Oh I just work here, he sounds like a 10 year old kid having a rant about his friend. Let me refute him. I used to work in a call centre. Some people there were pretty irresponsible, like not taking someone off the list when asked. I just did my job and got paid, so if someone wanted to be taken off the list and not be called I was glad to do it. So, I am me, I am not my company, I am an individual, and I take responsibility for my own actions, not the companies action, unless I am the CEO. Now, what can be done about these marketers?

cwan 17y ago
There's a difference being unable and powerless to do something and coming across as if you just don't care. Saying that you're just doing your job and not attempting (or even pretending) to do something about it it comes across as the latter and a major turnoff to both your customers and business partners. In this case it sounds like this company was asking Godin for a favor - sure you could call it a rant, but it's also pretty fair given that it's not like he went to them, they went to him (which would make the attitude especially galling). When you start saying stuff like 'it's not my department' when you're asking for a favor from someone else, it's also saying that you have little to no pride about the company that you work for and I think that's his point. If you care so little, life's short. Why wouldn't you find somewhere better to work (or better yet, start your own business that you can be proud of)?
- diego 17y ago
  I often interact with people who work for corporations like that. They usually don't care about the company because the company won't acknowledge any extra effort on their part. All that's expected from them is to comply with what they are asked to do. If person A calls me to do X, from the point of view of the company all that matters is that X is done. If A comes back with a complaint from me about Y, from the point of view of the company A is wasting her time. He says "if you are not proud, go somewhere else" but that's wrong. She may need the salary and be satisfied with her conditions. Who says she has to be proud? He's the one with the problem. Seth, if you are not happy then do business with a different company.
  - freddier 17y ago
    Which is exactly the point. I don't think this essay is aimed to employees. It's for employers.
    - halostatue 17y ago
      It's aimed at both. The people he was talking to shouldn't have said "I just work here"; they should have said "I'm sorry about that; I can't fix it, but I'll try to make sure that the people who should be able to fix it hear that you're not happy about it." Even if they dropped it from that point, it would have left a better impression of the brand on Seth than the "I just work here" did. Me? I suspect that the brand is Real. I never get unsubscribed from their "game" spam despite having submitted about 20 unsubscribe requests.
- halostatue 17y ago
  Damn straight about this. Last week I went through hell talking to Acer about the battery on my A1 netbook. Their script-driven customer service had no flexibility and has cost Acer a customer for life -- and any recommendations that I'd ever have for their products. They simply told me "no one in the company can do [what I asked, which was quite reasonable]". Later, after I got someone who wasn't based in India (or somewhere like that), I learned that they couldn't do what I wanted because they had eliminated the positions that would have enabled it. If the humandroids in the first customer service had demonstrated any creativity or flexibility to find out why, I wouldn't be as angry at Acer as I am. As it is, they've demonstrated that as a company they care nothing about customer service.
Quarrelsome 17y ago
Heh, when I used to cold call for some crappy call centre they told us NEVER to take the names off the database. However I could see the damage this caused so I deleted from the db whenever I could see that further calling the said individual would result in "rage".
Confusion 17y ago
Godin isn't writing about some call centre. He isn't writing about people working at some random company. He's writing about people working at a brand. And he provides a reason for why that brand may be failing. For anyone working to establish or consolidate a brand, this is a valuable insight: your employees are an important part of your brand. Make sure they care. This partly holds for any company: if a colleague of mine delivers bad work, people will throw nasty glances at me when they hear I work at the same company. Now you can go all "they shouldn't do that" on me, but that's just sticking your head deeper in the sand and refusing to acknowledge this reality, in which you live with people that think and judge that way. Therefore, I will criticise any colleague whose work isn't up to par.
- tjogin 17y ago
  IMHO, if the brand you work at wants you to take responsibility for the actions of any and all other people and other departments at the brand, they should pay you accordingly. But they don't ever do that, do they? However you look at it, the responsibility is with the board and top management. Not the people who "just work there" and are neither paid nor trusted with the kind of responsibility that Seth Godin is talking about.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    I think Seth has a good point here. Employees should, at least to a degree, feel a pride in the company they work for, and if they do not they should find somewhere else to work (or at least try to.) But more than that, when you are doing something on behalf of and in the name of a company then you are that company's representative, its "face" to those you are dealing with. As such, you can expect to receive both credit and blame for everything attached to that company and you are responsible for doing everything within your authority to fix problems. That limit may be nothing more than putting the person you are dealing with in the correct department, but if that is it you should pass along the contact information (in both directions!) respectfully and courteously, not dismissively with "I just work here." As a manager, I would be unhappy to ever hear one of my employees say that no matter what their job. If it was a customer facing employee, then (depending on the nuances of the circumstances) it could easily call for a formal reprimand for damaging the companies reputation and being dismissive to customers.
phreanix 17y ago
This is why I feel that Godin is a niche marketer. When he posts these 'gems', he's speaking to a narrow demographic. Those people who have some sort of vision and are 'still' trying to change the world. Most people are content with their jobs, the security it gives, and the money they take home. Seth is speaking to the ones who want to work for something they believe in and actually do choose what company they send resumes to because it matters to them who and why they will lend their talents to. This is where I'll sound like a Sethapologist: Some say anybody could have written this and that anybody could have ranted and been voted down here, but since it's Seth then the we pay attention. But has anybody really 'ranted' with the kind of consistency and proven results like he has? That's why people listen, and tho it's easy to dismiss what he says as 'just common sense', there will always be those who look to him and his words as inspiration and would have a seed of good management planted in them by it. In that case, he's already done his job and achieved the goal of his post. Something few of us can say we've done. It's been more than a decade since I was in my 20's working a job because I needed the money yet still trying to hang on my ideals for dear life. Sometimes that's what it takes, someone to remind you that it still matters.
astrec 17y ago
Your blog, your tweets, your linkedin profile: your personal brand. I'll take a punt and say nearly everyone here (or at least those involved in a startup) is a marketer in some capacity. You've contradicted, not refuted, him. And you're wrong. In each and every external interaction you are the brand. If you're speaking directly to me you might as well be CEO because I couldn't care less if you're the tea lady - your job to delight me. When you fail I'll blame the brand. I might even post a rant about it.

by Ardit20 17y ago

cwan 17y ago

There's a difference being unable and powerless to do something and coming across as if you just don't care. Saying that you're just doing your job and not attempting (or even pretending) to do something about it it comes across as the latter and a major turnoff to both your customers and business partners. In this case it sounds like this company was asking Godin for a favor - sure you could call it a rant, but it's also pretty fair given that it's not like he went to them, they went to him (which would make the attitude especially galling). When you start saying stuff like 'it's not my department' when you're asking for a favor from someone else, it's also saying that you have little to no pride about the company that you work for and I think that's his point. If you care so little, life's short. Why wouldn't you find somewhere better to work (or better yet, start your own business that you can be proud of)?

diego 17y ago
I often interact with people who work for corporations like that. They usually don't care about the company because the company won't acknowledge any extra effort on their part. All that's expected from them is to comply with what they are asked to do. If person A calls me to do X, from the point of view of the company all that matters is that X is done. If A comes back with a complaint from me about Y, from the point of view of the company A is wasting her time. He says "if you are not proud, go somewhere else" but that's wrong. She may need the salary and be satisfied with her conditions. Who says she has to be proud? He's the one with the problem. Seth, if you are not happy then do business with a different company.
- freddier 17y ago
  Which is exactly the point. I don't think this essay is aimed to employees. It's for employers.
  - halostatue 17y ago
    It's aimed at both. The people he was talking to shouldn't have said "I just work here"; they should have said "I'm sorry about that; I can't fix it, but I'll try to make sure that the people who should be able to fix it hear that you're not happy about it." Even if they dropped it from that point, it would have left a better impression of the brand on Seth than the "I just work here" did. Me? I suspect that the brand is Real. I never get unsubscribed from their "game" spam despite having submitted about 20 unsubscribe requests.
halostatue 17y ago
Damn straight about this. Last week I went through hell talking to Acer about the battery on my A1 netbook. Their script-driven customer service had no flexibility and has cost Acer a customer for life -- and any recommendations that I'd ever have for their products. They simply told me "no one in the company can do [what I asked, which was quite reasonable]". Later, after I got someone who wasn't based in India (or somewhere like that), I learned that they couldn't do what I wanted because they had eliminated the positions that would have enabled it. If the humandroids in the first customer service had demonstrated any creativity or flexibility to find out why, I wouldn't be as angry at Acer as I am. As it is, they've demonstrated that as a company they care nothing about customer service.

Quarrelsome 17y ago

Heh, when I used to cold call for some crappy call centre they told us NEVER to take the names off the database. However I could see the damage this caused so I deleted from the db whenever I could see that further calling the said individual would result in "rage".

Confusion 17y ago

Godin isn't writing about some call centre. He isn't writing about people working at some random company. He's writing about people working at a brand. And he provides a reason for why that brand may be failing. For anyone working to establish or consolidate a brand, this is a valuable insight: your employees are an important part of your brand. Make sure they care. This partly holds for any company: if a colleague of mine delivers bad work, people will throw nasty glances at me when they hear I work at the same company. Now you can go all "they shouldn't do that" on me, but that's just sticking your head deeper in the sand and refusing to acknowledge this reality, in which you live with people that think and judge that way. Therefore, I will criticise any colleague whose work isn't up to par.

tjogin 17y ago
IMHO, if the brand you work at wants you to take responsibility for the actions of any and all other people and other departments at the brand, they should pay you accordingly. But they don't ever do that, do they? However you look at it, the responsibility is with the board and top management. Not the people who "just work there" and are neither paid nor trusted with the kind of responsibility that Seth Godin is talking about.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  I think Seth has a good point here. Employees should, at least to a degree, feel a pride in the company they work for, and if they do not they should find somewhere else to work (or at least try to.) But more than that, when you are doing something on behalf of and in the name of a company then you are that company's representative, its "face" to those you are dealing with. As such, you can expect to receive both credit and blame for everything attached to that company and you are responsible for doing everything within your authority to fix problems. That limit may be nothing more than putting the person you are dealing with in the correct department, but if that is it you should pass along the contact information (in both directions!) respectfully and courteously, not dismissively with "I just work here." As a manager, I would be unhappy to ever hear one of my employees say that no matter what their job. If it was a customer facing employee, then (depending on the nuances of the circumstances) it could easily call for a formal reprimand for damaging the companies reputation and being dismissive to customers.

phreanix 17y ago

This is why I feel that Godin is a niche marketer. When he posts these 'gems', he's speaking to a narrow demographic. Those people who have some sort of vision and are 'still' trying to change the world. Most people are content with their jobs, the security it gives, and the money they take home. Seth is speaking to the ones who want to work for something they believe in and actually do choose what company they send resumes to because it matters to them who and why they will lend their talents to. This is where I'll sound like a Sethapologist: Some say anybody could have written this and that anybody could have ranted and been voted down here, but since it's Seth then the we pay attention. But has anybody really 'ranted' with the kind of consistency and proven results like he has? That's why people listen, and tho it's easy to dismiss what he says as 'just common sense', there will always be those who look to him and his words as inspiration and would have a seed of good management planted in them by it. In that case, he's already done his job and achieved the goal of his post. Something few of us can say we've done. It's been more than a decade since I was in my 20's working a job because I needed the money yet still trying to hang on my ideals for dear life. Sometimes that's what it takes, someone to remind you that it still matters.

astrec 17y ago

Your blog, your tweets, your linkedin profile: your personal brand. I'll take a punt and say nearly everyone here (or at least those involved in a startup) is a marketer in some capacity. You've contradicted, not refuted, him. And you're wrong. In each and every external interaction you are the brand. If you're speaking directly to me you might as well be CEO because I couldn't care less if you're the tea lady - your job to delight me. When you fail I'll blame the brand. I might even post a rant about it.