6 ms·

I fear this will get a lot of "Just say no" comments from people that don't understand that the author is from Pakistan and most likely grew up in a completely

by Hansi 13y ago

I fear this will get a lot of "Just say no" comments from people that don't understand that the author is from Pakistan and most likely grew up in a completely different culture than most of us are used to. And it seems like she's not villing/able to cut of contact with her family as I would maybe do if I were in her place, but I'll never be so it's hard to even imagine what I'd do.

agilebyte 13y ago
Plus she says deporting the husband did not work and her relatives are apparently working on JFK. What a mix.
JetSpiegel 13y ago
From [1]: I have said "No" but being a Pakistani girl there's nothing I can do. I was even forced to marry that guy who is 15 years older than me. And I would say goodbye to everything but I have to wait for the right time. I'm being mean though, I need my family right now to support me until I finish my school. And then it will be up to me. I know I sound selfish but it's nothing compared to what they've done to me and my life [1]: https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/24553 https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/24553
strictfp 13y ago
Even though this advice isn't something she might consider in her current situation, it might be good for her to hear it. After all, she's basically a hostage in this situation, and hearing people confirm this might prevent her from getting stuck in a "Stockholm syndrome". And frankly, I think her best move in this situation would be to say no and find refuge for herself. Yes, family members might get seriously injured as a result, but the way I see it there is no other way of breaking free from such an oppressive culture. Everything is set up to lure you back.
- tinco 13y ago
  You are forgetting that she is in college, and desires to continue to do so. Overtly saying no will most likely result in family or friends of family going after her in Spain. Once you enter the Shengen area of Europe, which is reachable by car from Pakistan you can basically get anywhere. There are countless easily traversed borders to this area in corrupt/poorer countries. After that there's close to no border checks. It is really easy for friends/family to get to Spain and make her life difficult there.
  - tinco 13y ago
    Living in The Netherlands it's easy to forget that these countries are not actually separated from Europe in any way. The distance between Amsterdam and Pakistan is comparable (a bit longer) to the distance between L.A. and New York. A cool story that was recently in the Dutch news reduces that perceived distance, when an independent car rental business owner pursues and retrieves one of his cars all the way in Iraq: http://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnos.nl%2Fartikel%2F595258-man-naar-irak-om-gestolen-autos.html http://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_... The thieves just rented a car, and drove there. Possibly to fight Jihad.
    - khuey 13y ago
      Pakistan is much farther away than you think it is. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMS-KHI,+JFK-LAX http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMS-KHI,+JFK-LAX
      - tinco 13y ago
        Hmm that's weird, I measured by going to google maps, spreading my fingers between Amsterdam and Pakistan. I then scrolled to the U.S. while holding my fingers in that position, and the distance difference was like ~20%, according to your flightplan it's almost twice as far though. Not sure what went wrong there :) edit: using http://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm http://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm I find 5600km for Amsterdam -> Islamabad, and 3900km from LA -> NY. So I was 40% off :P
        kej 13y ago
        >Not sure what went wrong there :) Google Maps uses a modified Mercator projection, which distorts distances.
        dalore 13y ago
        You are measure a 3d projection on a 2d plane. There has to be distortion somewhere. Most likely they use the mercator projection which has places further from the equator appear bigger than the ones near the equator.
- aestra 13y ago
  Seriously? You know she can die for doing this? Honor killings are real for women not obeying her family, especially in matters of sex and marriage. Sandeela Kanwal - killed by her parents for trying to leave her arranged marriage. Noor Almaleki - murdered by her parents for (among other things) shunning arranged marriage. The other things were trying to be too western, like wanting to have the privilege of driving a car. Those are the ones that just took place in the US lately. You have no idea what is is like to be in her situation!!
  - strictfp 13y ago
    No, I have no idea what it's like. But I can imagine that it's quite similar to being held hostage. Running away as a hostage might also get you shot. But that doesn't mean you should stay with your oppressors.
  - commentorY 13y ago
    In the article she said that she was worried that even if she escaped her mother or sister could be hurt. While the local law enforcement should protect her if her husband is abusive, there is nothing they can do about threats in a foreign land.
smoe 13y ago
One of the "just say no" sayer here. I do understand, that the author is from Pakistan and currently studying in Spain. But, even though I think family is important, sometimes you have to value your own will over that of the family, no matter the cost. My father lost almost all of his friends, decades of relations, and didn't had contact with his family for years, because he decided to leave the "sect" and marry a woman from Finland whom he loved instead of the 2nd degree cousin the family has designated for him. This was in Christian Switzerland not Pakistan, but still a lot of pressure to handle.
- _delirium 13y ago
  It sounds like she's worried about practicalities too, though, not only relationship with family. She indicated she's willing to cut ties after she finishes school, but they're currently financially supporting her studies. If she graduates from a university in Spain she has a much better chance of getting a job & work permit to stay in Europe. It's possible she could stay in Spain even if they cut off support, but it's not anything like a guarantee. Officially the default in most European countries is that if you're on a student visa and no longer have the ability to study full-time and support yourself, you get deported. It might be possible to support oneself on part-time jobs, though youth unemployment is very high in Spain currently even among Spaniards. It might be possible to claim asylum, but that is not easy either (Spain grants asylum rarely, <250 people/yr typically). Not sure what the right answer is.
  - smoe 13y ago
    Yes, I understand now that the main issue seems to be, that the family pays her studies in Spain. This really is a though call. Even if Spain would grant asylum, I guess that would be the end of her studies for quite a while.
- LaGrange 13y ago
  See the "I don't want my family to get in trouble, they're gonna kill me if they find out that I did something at the airport.” comment later? Think it’s a hyperbole? Well, it’s not.
einhverfr 13y ago
Also keep in mind that in most of the world, familial ties are much stronger than in the US. I am not in the "just say no" category. Instead I am in the "just say yes" category. Then go off, run away, sue for divorce, and then decide what to do. If she can safely return home, do it. If not, then there is the asylum process. Being in the US may provide many more options than being in Pakistan would in this regard. I say this being conscious that this is a specific situation and the individual involved will have to make the decisions for herself. I also say this as someone who is probably reasonably well known here as reasonably critical of American individualism, but there are times when it can be handy and this might be one.
rdl 13y ago
More specifically, she still expects her family to support her financially, so she can't say "no".
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  That sounds like the real problem to me. I know I'll come off as a culturally-insensitive douchebag for saying this, but the fact that somebody isn't used to saying "no", or even being able to say "no", doesn't mean that it isn't the best option. That's not to say that it is the best option here (like most, I'm not terribly familiar with the person's particular situation), but I think that "I'm not used to doing X" isn't a great reason to not do X. EDIT: Apparently this person fears for their life if they disobey their family's wishes? That's god-damned barbaric.
  - rdl 13y ago
    Actually there are plenty of cases of honor killings even in the civilized world. Not necessarily in this case.
    - BlackDeath3 13y ago
      Do you mind providing me with some examples of civilized honor killings?
      - rdl 13y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders
MichaelGG 13y ago
Yeah, she even said that she has family working at JFK that can check up on things and report if she doesn't show. I get it, on technical things, you can be 100% correct in telling someone "no, what you're attempting is just wrong, and this approach works better". On issues of life, with adults, it might be nice to remind people of other options. It's just silly though to insist that the person hasn't thought of their position and didn't come up with the idea of "oh I should just call the cops". It's like someone says "how can I hide that I'm a heroin addict at work; I can't lose my job right now" and the reply is just "stop using drugs". Wow, that's helpful.

by Hansi 13y ago

agilebyte 13y ago

Plus she says deporting the husband did not work and her relatives are apparently working on JFK. What a mix.

JetSpiegel 13y ago

From [1]: I have said "No" but being a Pakistani girl there's nothing I can do. I was even forced to marry that guy who is 15 years older than me. And I would say goodbye to everything but I have to wait for the right time. I'm being mean though, I need my family right now to support me until I finish my school. And then it will be up to me. I know I sound selfish but it's nothing compared to what they've done to me and my life [1]: https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/24553 https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/24553

strictfp 13y ago

Even though this advice isn't something she might consider in her current situation, it might be good for her to hear it. After all, she's basically a hostage in this situation, and hearing people confirm this might prevent her from getting stuck in a "Stockholm syndrome". And frankly, I think her best move in this situation would be to say no and find refuge for herself. Yes, family members might get seriously injured as a result, but the way I see it there is no other way of breaking free from such an oppressive culture. Everything is set up to lure you back.

tinco 13y ago
You are forgetting that she is in college, and desires to continue to do so. Overtly saying no will most likely result in family or friends of family going after her in Spain. Once you enter the Shengen area of Europe, which is reachable by car from Pakistan you can basically get anywhere. There are countless easily traversed borders to this area in corrupt/poorer countries. After that there's close to no border checks. It is really easy for friends/family to get to Spain and make her life difficult there.
- tinco 13y ago
  Living in The Netherlands it's easy to forget that these countries are not actually separated from Europe in any way. The distance between Amsterdam and Pakistan is comparable (a bit longer) to the distance between L.A. and New York. A cool story that was recently in the Dutch news reduces that perceived distance, when an independent car rental business owner pursues and retrieves one of his cars all the way in Iraq: http://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnos.nl%2Fartikel%2F595258-man-naar-irak-om-gestolen-autos.html http://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_... The thieves just rented a car, and drove there. Possibly to fight Jihad.
  - khuey 13y ago
    Pakistan is much farther away than you think it is. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMS-KHI,+JFK-LAX http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMS-KHI,+JFK-LAX
    - tinco 13y ago
      Hmm that's weird, I measured by going to google maps, spreading my fingers between Amsterdam and Pakistan. I then scrolled to the U.S. while holding my fingers in that position, and the distance difference was like ~20%, according to your flightplan it's almost twice as far though. Not sure what went wrong there :) edit: using http://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm http://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm I find 5600km for Amsterdam -> Islamabad, and 3900km from LA -> NY. So I was 40% off :P
      - kej 13y ago
        >Not sure what went wrong there :) Google Maps uses a modified Mercator projection, which distorts distances.
      - dalore 13y ago
        You are measure a 3d projection on a 2d plane. There has to be distortion somewhere. Most likely they use the mercator projection which has places further from the equator appear bigger than the ones near the equator.
aestra 13y ago
Seriously? You know she can die for doing this? Honor killings are real for women not obeying her family, especially in matters of sex and marriage. Sandeela Kanwal - killed by her parents for trying to leave her arranged marriage. Noor Almaleki - murdered by her parents for (among other things) shunning arranged marriage. The other things were trying to be too western, like wanting to have the privilege of driving a car. Those are the ones that just took place in the US lately. You have no idea what is is like to be in her situation!!
- strictfp 13y ago
  No, I have no idea what it's like. But I can imagine that it's quite similar to being held hostage. Running away as a hostage might also get you shot. But that doesn't mean you should stay with your oppressors.
- commentorY 13y ago
  In the article she said that she was worried that even if she escaped her mother or sister could be hurt. While the local law enforcement should protect her if her husband is abusive, there is nothing they can do about threats in a foreign land.

smoe 13y ago

One of the "just say no" sayer here. I do understand, that the author is from Pakistan and currently studying in Spain. But, even though I think family is important, sometimes you have to value your own will over that of the family, no matter the cost. My father lost almost all of his friends, decades of relations, and didn't had contact with his family for years, because he decided to leave the "sect" and marry a woman from Finland whom he loved instead of the 2nd degree cousin the family has designated for him. This was in Christian Switzerland not Pakistan, but still a lot of pressure to handle.

_delirium 13y ago
It sounds like she's worried about practicalities too, though, not only relationship with family. She indicated she's willing to cut ties after she finishes school, but they're currently financially supporting her studies. If she graduates from a university in Spain she has a much better chance of getting a job & work permit to stay in Europe. It's possible she could stay in Spain even if they cut off support, but it's not anything like a guarantee. Officially the default in most European countries is that if you're on a student visa and no longer have the ability to study full-time and support yourself, you get deported. It might be possible to support oneself on part-time jobs, though youth unemployment is very high in Spain currently even among Spaniards. It might be possible to claim asylum, but that is not easy either (Spain grants asylum rarely, <250 people/yr typically). Not sure what the right answer is.
- smoe 13y ago
  Yes, I understand now that the main issue seems to be, that the family pays her studies in Spain. This really is a though call. Even if Spain would grant asylum, I guess that would be the end of her studies for quite a while.
LaGrange 13y ago
See the "I don't want my family to get in trouble, they're gonna kill me if they find out that I did something at the airport.” comment later? Think it’s a hyperbole? Well, it’s not.

einhverfr 13y ago

Also keep in mind that in most of the world, familial ties are much stronger than in the US. I am not in the "just say no" category. Instead I am in the "just say yes" category. Then go off, run away, sue for divorce, and then decide what to do. If she can safely return home, do it. If not, then there is the asylum process. Being in the US may provide many more options than being in Pakistan would in this regard. I say this being conscious that this is a specific situation and the individual involved will have to make the decisions for herself. I also say this as someone who is probably reasonably well known here as reasonably critical of American individualism, but there are times when it can be handy and this might be one.

rdl 13y ago

More specifically, she still expects her family to support her financially, so she can't say "no".

BlackDeath3 13y ago
That sounds like the real problem to me. I know I'll come off as a culturally-insensitive douchebag for saying this, but the fact that somebody isn't used to saying "no", or even being able to say "no", doesn't mean that it isn't the best option. That's not to say that it is the best option here (like most, I'm not terribly familiar with the person's particular situation), but I think that "I'm not used to doing X" isn't a great reason to not do X. EDIT: Apparently this person fears for their life if they disobey their family's wishes? That's god-damned barbaric.
- rdl 13y ago
  Actually there are plenty of cases of honor killings even in the civilized world. Not necessarily in this case.
  - BlackDeath3 13y ago
    Do you mind providing me with some examples of civilized honor killings?
    - rdl 13y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders

MichaelGG 13y ago

Yeah, she even said that she has family working at JFK that can check up on things and report if she doesn't show. I get it, on technical things, you can be 100% correct in telling someone "no, what you're attempting is just wrong, and this approach works better". On issues of life, with adults, it might be nice to remind people of other options. It's just silly though to insist that the person hasn't thought of their position and didn't come up with the idea of "oh I should just call the cops". It's like someone says "how can I hide that I'm a heroin addict at work; I can't lose my job right now" and the reply is just "stop using drugs". Wow, that's helpful.