6 ms·

Getting a PhD in Norway is nearly free--even if you're not a citizen

47 points by aagha 13y ago

magic8ball 13y ago
PhDs in the US are paid to teach and often receive grants to do research.
- chrisBob 13y ago
  If you are getting a PhD in the US, and you aren't getting paid for it, then you shouldn't be in that program. Technically my program charges tuition, but everyone gets a paycheck every month, and the department pays itself your tuition fees. I just owe the school $20 a semester for "student fees".
arnsholt 13y ago
The title is a bit misleading. While it is true that Norwegian PhD students don't have to pay tuition, they're also salaried employees of the university. My PhD position pays at the lower end of what an engineer can expect to be paid in the public sector (and certainly lower than private sector), but it's still more than enough to live comfortably off: my salary is about 400k NOK (~66k USD, according to Google).
jsumrall 13y ago
Not free, but the people of Norway feel like education is important enough that they choose to pay for it through taxes rather than make the individual pay.
- arethuza 13y ago
  Doesn't "free" in a context like this mean "free at the point of delivery" - not "doesn't cost anything". [NB "free at the point of delivery" is how the UK NHS (all 4 of them) have always described their services]
cabinpark 13y ago
I have never heard of a PhD student who isn't getting paid to do research. Even at the Master's level, most students were getting paid, with the exception of the coursework people. Are there people who are actually paying for their PhDs? If so that is definitely not the norm.
- denzil_correa 13y ago
  > Are there people who are actually paying for their PhDs? Yes, there are. I know Cornell(USA) has had such positions. But yes, it is definitely not a norm.
  - cabinpark 13y ago
    Wow that's the worst. I would NEVER pay for a PhD out of my own pocket. I mean, yes the PhD isn't "free" in the sense of I don't pay tuition. I do but it's included in my funding. I asked a former university staffer about it once and they told me the money doesn't exist. The university "charges" me x dollars per term, but in my funding there is conveniently an extra x dollars per term in addition to my y salary from the university. So I then tell the university in my funding forms that they owe me x+y dollars and they are like "oh, well we have to deduct x dollars for your tuition". So the net effect is the money doesn't actually exist. What subjects were these PhDs in by the way?
    - denzil_correa 13y ago
      > What subjects were these PhDs in by the way? I am talking specifically about Computer Science. This is not even a modern instance. The first case I've heard about is in 1999.
- alexandros 13y ago
  Some times the student's home country will pay for their PhD tuition and expenses abroad, which means that from the university's perspective they're a paying student. The catch is that the student then signs that they will return home for a period (e.g. two years) immediately after the PhD or be liable to pay the scholarship back. [source: am an ex PhD student, have seen friends under this arrangement].
fulafel 13y ago
Living expenses in Norway are astronomical if you're not locally employed. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Norway&city=Oslo&displayCurrency=USD http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country...
- varjag 13y ago
  You can live on PhD stipend fairly comfortably though.
p4bl0 13y ago
I didn't know that people were paying to do a PhD anywhere on earth. In France I'm fairly sure it is even forbidden to do a PhD without getting paid (if you don't you have to justify that you have incomes by other means or something to be able to register as a PhD student).
- alkonaut 13y ago
  There is a cultural difference in whether PhD studies are seen as an add-on education after normal university studies, or if it is an employment as a teacher+researcher. In Sweden it's the latter, so students are employed as PhD students and get a salary (though usually not very competitive compared to what you would make if working elsewhere). The fact that the PhD students spend a lot of time teaching and not only educating themselves and working towards their thesis is what makes take around 5 years, rather than, say 3 years.
  - p4bl0 13y ago
    Ya, it seems to be the same as in France then: PhD students here have a real work contract and a student status (which comes as anywhere with many advantages). However we have mostly 3 years long PhDs, and the teaching hours are limited. The law actually states the minimum salary for a PhD student. It is approximately 1650€ "brut" (before social taxes) which amounts to 1350€ "net" (what you actually get each month). If you have a "mission d'enseignement" (teaching hours), which is not mandatory, then you have to be teaching for 64 hours per years (that is not counting the time you spend preparing for the course or the time spent correcting students assignments of course) and should not occupy more than 1/6 of your working time. Your salary is then 2000€ "brut", which amounts 1650€ "net". Public PhD funding almost always stays at this level of salary. However you can be paid more than this, for instance if you are paid on a project grant money or if you are in CIFRE (which means you are paid by a company for which you have to spend a defined part of your time, this is often but not always incompatible with having a "mission d'enseignement"). But then your a lot less free to do whatever you want (since the project or the company mst of the time have strongly fixed goals).
    - 13y ago
tyd 13y ago
university is free in most european countries
- arethuza 13y ago
  Not in England and here in Scotland they are "free" to Scottish students studying in Scotland. If someone from out Scotland comes here to study then fees are charged and if a Scottish student goes elsewhere in the UK then fees are charged.
  - vrikis 13y ago
    Not quite right - in Scotland, it's actually free for all EU students EXCEPT for English, Welsh, and Northern Irish students. And as mentioned above, it's free in the sense that students don't pay, but it's all subsidised by SAAS organisation. (nothing in life is "free", right?)
    - arethuza 13y ago
      Thanks - I didn't know about that. Seems rather unfair to the rest of the UK then....
      - agilebyte 13y ago
        The explanation given to me was: it is possible to discriminate between students from different parts of an individual member state but not to discriminate against those from other parts of the EU.
        vrikis 13y ago
        Exactly that, plus Scots going to study in England had to pay their fees. As a side note though, if Scotland becomes independent when voted later on this year, then "Thousands of English, Welsh and Northern Irish students will study at Scottish universities for free" [1] [1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/1020373/English-students-could-get-free-tuition-at-Scottish-universities.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/102...
xerophtye 13y ago
I wonder why the poster put "PhD" in the title, where as the articles says "at all levels including undergraduate, Masters, PhD"
pjan 13y ago
In Belgium you get paid to do a PhD. For engineers it is competitive to market rates, for all other majors it's even much higher than what they receive in the private sector (but harder to get into/less possibilities. This also applies for non-citizens.
onazareth 13y ago
You get paid in Norway to do a PhD. I got paid more then than having a job in the industry in my native country.
jebus989 13y ago
Undergrad for free == interesting and not all that common (though does happen elsewhere in EU, e.g. Austria) PhD for free != interesting, I'm paid a tax-free stipend (UK) which also covers tuition fees (same for MSc). There are "self-funded" positions advertised but it's generally junior faculty trying their luck for overseas students. I've never heard of anyone actually paying out of their own pocket for PhD study in the EU.
- n0mad_0 13y ago
  > I've never heard of anyone actually paying out of their own pocket for PhD study in the EU. That probably also indicates that phd is only for those who managed to find funding. Is it hard to secure funding for studies in the UK for the UK or EU nationals?
  - jebus989 13y ago
    I agree. Honestly I'd say no (off-hand), obviously high-tier institutions are competitive but PhDs are cheap labour for senior academics and cheap to fund from a research council perspective.
graeham 13y ago
I'm doing a PhD in the UK, and there certainly are people who are doing a PhD without funding (and paying quite high tuition, outside the EU is nearly £20k/yr), although they are a minority. I would guess 10%, less in STEM subjects. I started my program with only about half my funding in place while making plans to have secondary income to help fund my studies. Fortunately I was able to find the funding for the remaining part of my program, but it seems that most who try to find funding once starting their studies aren't successful in finding it (at least in the UK). Acceptance to the program is quite a bit easier than getting funding. I wouldn't recommend studying without funding - in addition to the expense I have seen these students are often treated as second class. In Canada, most people were funded in research assistantships coming from their PI, or had independent scholarships. This covered tuition and about $10,000 salary for research-based Masters or $15,000 for PhD, and could be supplemented by about $5000/year by teaching. This is marginally enough to live on without loans if you were thrifty and don't have dependents. I didn't know of anyone who wasn't paid (in Engineering - I think there were in Arts). Its worth noting especially for STEM people that the biggest cost is probably opportunity cost compared to the salary (or start up) you could be doing instead of a PhD. TL;DR - not paying tuition for a PhD isn't newsworthy.
olssonm 13y ago
It used to be the same way in Sweden, all educations were free even for all foreigners. The hope was that once the foreigners took their exam they would stay in the country. However, it didn't pan out too well – now foreigners from non-EU countries have to pay around (varies somewhat at the different universities) 9000USD per semester.
pontifexa 13y ago
So, the point of the linked article isn't that you are expected to get your PhD without being paid for your research work. Most if not all PhDs in Norway are paid or sponsored. The point is that you can, having finished high school, go to Norway and get the whole 8-9 years of bachelor->masters->phd education completely free of tuition fees (disregarding the nominal ~100/year enrolment fee).

47 points by aagha 13y ago

magic8ball 13y ago

PhDs in the US are paid to teach and often receive grants to do research.

chrisBob 13y ago
If you are getting a PhD in the US, and you aren't getting paid for it, then you shouldn't be in that program. Technically my program charges tuition, but everyone gets a paycheck every month, and the department pays itself your tuition fees. I just owe the school $20 a semester for "student fees".

arnsholt 13y ago

The title is a bit misleading. While it is true that Norwegian PhD students don't have to pay tuition, they're also salaried employees of the university. My PhD position pays at the lower end of what an engineer can expect to be paid in the public sector (and certainly lower than private sector), but it's still more than enough to live comfortably off: my salary is about 400k NOK (~66k USD, according to Google).

jsumrall 13y ago

Not free, but the people of Norway feel like education is important enough that they choose to pay for it through taxes rather than make the individual pay.

arethuza 13y ago
Doesn't "free" in a context like this mean "free at the point of delivery" - not "doesn't cost anything". [NB "free at the point of delivery" is how the UK NHS (all 4 of them) have always described their services]

cabinpark 13y ago

I have never heard of a PhD student who isn't getting paid to do research. Even at the Master's level, most students were getting paid, with the exception of the coursework people. Are there people who are actually paying for their PhDs? If so that is definitely not the norm.

denzil_correa 13y ago
> Are there people who are actually paying for their PhDs? Yes, there are. I know Cornell(USA) has had such positions. But yes, it is definitely not a norm.
- cabinpark 13y ago
  Wow that's the worst. I would NEVER pay for a PhD out of my own pocket. I mean, yes the PhD isn't "free" in the sense of I don't pay tuition. I do but it's included in my funding. I asked a former university staffer about it once and they told me the money doesn't exist. The university "charges" me x dollars per term, but in my funding there is conveniently an extra x dollars per term in addition to my y salary from the university. So I then tell the university in my funding forms that they owe me x+y dollars and they are like "oh, well we have to deduct x dollars for your tuition". So the net effect is the money doesn't actually exist. What subjects were these PhDs in by the way?
  - denzil_correa 13y ago
    > What subjects were these PhDs in by the way? I am talking specifically about Computer Science. This is not even a modern instance. The first case I've heard about is in 1999.
alexandros 13y ago
Some times the student's home country will pay for their PhD tuition and expenses abroad, which means that from the university's perspective they're a paying student. The catch is that the student then signs that they will return home for a period (e.g. two years) immediately after the PhD or be liable to pay the scholarship back. [source: am an ex PhD student, have seen friends under this arrangement].

fulafel 13y ago

Living expenses in Norway are astronomical if you're not locally employed. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Norway&city=Oslo&displayCurrency=USD http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country...

varjag 13y ago
You can live on PhD stipend fairly comfortably though.

p4bl0 13y ago

I didn't know that people were paying to do a PhD anywhere on earth. In France I'm fairly sure it is even forbidden to do a PhD without getting paid (if you don't you have to justify that you have incomes by other means or something to be able to register as a PhD student).

alkonaut 13y ago
There is a cultural difference in whether PhD studies are seen as an add-on education after normal university studies, or if it is an employment as a teacher+researcher. In Sweden it's the latter, so students are employed as PhD students and get a salary (though usually not very competitive compared to what you would make if working elsewhere). The fact that the PhD students spend a lot of time teaching and not only educating themselves and working towards their thesis is what makes take around 5 years, rather than, say 3 years.
- p4bl0 13y ago
  Ya, it seems to be the same as in France then: PhD students here have a real work contract and a student status (which comes as anywhere with many advantages). However we have mostly 3 years long PhDs, and the teaching hours are limited. The law actually states the minimum salary for a PhD student. It is approximately 1650€ "brut" (before social taxes) which amounts to 1350€ "net" (what you actually get each month). If you have a "mission d'enseignement" (teaching hours), which is not mandatory, then you have to be teaching for 64 hours per years (that is not counting the time you spend preparing for the course or the time spent correcting students assignments of course) and should not occupy more than 1/6 of your working time. Your salary is then 2000€ "brut", which amounts 1650€ "net". Public PhD funding almost always stays at this level of salary. However you can be paid more than this, for instance if you are paid on a project grant money or if you are in CIFRE (which means you are paid by a company for which you have to spend a defined part of your time, this is often but not always incompatible with having a "mission d'enseignement"). But then your a lot less free to do whatever you want (since the project or the company mst of the time have strongly fixed goals).
  - 13y ago

tyd 13y ago

university is free in most european countries

arethuza 13y ago
Not in England and here in Scotland they are "free" to Scottish students studying in Scotland. If someone from out Scotland comes here to study then fees are charged and if a Scottish student goes elsewhere in the UK then fees are charged.
- vrikis 13y ago
  Not quite right - in Scotland, it's actually free for all EU students EXCEPT for English, Welsh, and Northern Irish students. And as mentioned above, it's free in the sense that students don't pay, but it's all subsidised by SAAS organisation. (nothing in life is "free", right?)
  - arethuza 13y ago
    Thanks - I didn't know about that. Seems rather unfair to the rest of the UK then....
    - agilebyte 13y ago
      The explanation given to me was: it is possible to discriminate between students from different parts of an individual member state but not to discriminate against those from other parts of the EU.
      - vrikis 13y ago
        Exactly that, plus Scots going to study in England had to pay their fees. As a side note though, if Scotland becomes independent when voted later on this year, then "Thousands of English, Welsh and Northern Irish students will study at Scottish universities for free" [1] [1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/1020373/English-students-could-get-free-tuition-at-Scottish-universities.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/102...

xerophtye 13y ago

I wonder why the poster put "PhD" in the title, where as the articles says "at all levels including undergraduate, Masters, PhD"

pjan 13y ago

In Belgium you get paid to do a PhD. For engineers it is competitive to market rates, for all other majors it's even much higher than what they receive in the private sector (but harder to get into/less possibilities. This also applies for non-citizens.

onazareth 13y ago

You get paid in Norway to do a PhD. I got paid more then than having a job in the industry in my native country.

jebus989 13y ago

Undergrad for free == interesting and not all that common (though does happen elsewhere in EU, e.g. Austria) PhD for free != interesting, I'm paid a tax-free stipend (UK) which also covers tuition fees (same for MSc). There are "self-funded" positions advertised but it's generally junior faculty trying their luck for overseas students. I've never heard of anyone actually paying out of their own pocket for PhD study in the EU.

n0mad_0 13y ago
> I've never heard of anyone actually paying out of their own pocket for PhD study in the EU. That probably also indicates that phd is only for those who managed to find funding. Is it hard to secure funding for studies in the UK for the UK or EU nationals?
- jebus989 13y ago
  I agree. Honestly I'd say no (off-hand), obviously high-tier institutions are competitive but PhDs are cheap labour for senior academics and cheap to fund from a research council perspective.

graeham 13y ago

I'm doing a PhD in the UK, and there certainly are people who are doing a PhD without funding (and paying quite high tuition, outside the EU is nearly £20k/yr), although they are a minority. I would guess 10%, less in STEM subjects. I started my program with only about half my funding in place while making plans to have secondary income to help fund my studies. Fortunately I was able to find the funding for the remaining part of my program, but it seems that most who try to find funding once starting their studies aren't successful in finding it (at least in the UK). Acceptance to the program is quite a bit easier than getting funding. I wouldn't recommend studying without funding - in addition to the expense I have seen these students are often treated as second class. In Canada, most people were funded in research assistantships coming from their PI, or had independent scholarships. This covered tuition and about $10,000 salary for research-based Masters or $15,000 for PhD, and could be supplemented by about $5000/year by teaching. This is marginally enough to live on without loans if you were thrifty and don't have dependents. I didn't know of anyone who wasn't paid (in Engineering - I think there were in Arts). Its worth noting especially for STEM people that the biggest cost is probably opportunity cost compared to the salary (or start up) you could be doing instead of a PhD. TL;DR - not paying tuition for a PhD isn't newsworthy.

olssonm 13y ago

It used to be the same way in Sweden, all educations were free even for all foreigners. The hope was that once the foreigners took their exam they would stay in the country. However, it didn't pan out too well – now foreigners from non-EU countries have to pay around (varies somewhat at the different universities) 9000USD per semester.

pontifexa 13y ago

So, the point of the linked article isn't that you are expected to get your PhD without being paid for your research work. Most if not all PhDs in Norway are paid or sponsored. The point is that you can, having finished high school, go to Norway and get the whole 8-9 years of bachelor->masters->phd education completely free of tuition fees (disregarding the nominal ~100/year enrolment fee).