6 ms·

Response to Nodejitsu NPM Trademark

69 points by voidfiles 13y ago

camus2 13y ago
so who owns npm?
- cevn 13y ago
  Well, before Jason Smith started to try to monetize npm, I would have said nobody. It's open source, right? After, well, he's the first one to do it, and it's not as though anyone else was in that space. So to me he has a better claim than Nodejitsu. It's possible that my knowledge is incomplete though so if anyone knows better please correct my misconceptions. I can't really see Nodejitsu's claim here. Also, why didn't nodejitsu voice their reservations over his use of npm before Jason decided to monetize the project? I feel as though either we don't know the whole story or Nodejitsu is pulling a fast one on the community.
  - the_mitsuhiko 13y ago
    > Well, before Jason Smith started to try to monetize npm, I would have said nobody. It's open source, right? That's not what open source man. There are still copyright notices in open source code.
latj 13y ago
I pledge not to use nodejitsu or have any dealings with nodejitsu employees until I see a blog post stating that they have changed their minds and are not going to hijack npm trademark.
- PlNG 13y ago
  I pledge not to use nodejitsu or have any dealings with nodejitsu employees. There's nothing to stop them from saying "sorry", and equally nothing to stop them from doing it again. It should not have happened in the first place.
rlidwka 13y ago
I wonder how it relates to a few npm forks (https://github.com/rlidwka/yapm https://github.com/rlidwka/yapm, https://github.com/visionmedia/npm https://github.com/visionmedia/npm) created earlier this year, especially to second one since @visionmedia didn't change its name... And what about alternate npm-compatible registries (https://github.com/mbrevoort/node-reggie https://github.com/mbrevoort/node-reggie, https://github.com/rlidwka/sinopia https://github.com/rlidwka/sinopia, https://github.com/cnpm/cnpmjs.org https://github.com/cnpm/cnpmjs.org), not based on CouchDB? "npm" isn't only a product name anymore since it's used extremely widely, so this doesn't seem like a good thing to do.
- ender7 13y ago
  In the trademark world you are arguing that "npm" has become "genericized" [1]. That certainly can happen, but that would be a very hard argument to make given npm's relative youth and the lack of true use as a generic. The people you link are either forking the actual npm client (in which case they are referring to it as a proper noun), or are building their own repo architecture, in which case they refer to it as an "npm registry" or "npm repository", not just "an npm". [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark
  - rlidwka 13y ago
    As far as I remember, "npm registry" is a trademark as well. Isn't it? At least, that's what is written here: https://github.com/npm/npm#legal-stuff https://github.com/npm/npm#legal-stuff . My point is: any single package README contains a phrase "install me using `npm install whatever`". It feels like it is generalized already...
- malandrew 13y ago
  Even without a trademark, the npm source has been Artistic License v2 for as long as I can remember, so any forks are obligated to change their name to have the right to forking the source code.
coenhyde 13y ago
Issacs wrote the initial npm and was by far the largest contributor. https://github.com/npm/npm/graphs/contributors https://github.com/npm/npm/graphs/contributors
- spikels 13y ago
  According to Mikeal he "wrote the original version of the npm registry". More of his thoughts on the history of NPM here: https://gist.github.com/mikeal/8947417 https://gist.github.com/mikeal/8947417
  - mikealAgain 13y ago
    the registry, yes, not npm itself. isaacs also has committed more to the actual registry code than I have as well.
aioprisan 13y ago
Why hadn't nodejitsu trademarked npm beforehand, if they believed the owned the right to it?
troymc 13y ago
It's my understanding that in open source communities, the relevant trademarks are usually held by a community-led foundation (e.g. the Apache Software Foundation, the Python Software Foundation). Is there no "Node Foundation"?
- rlidwka 13y ago
  There is no node foundation, "Node.js" is a Joyent's trademark. We had discussed this particular bikeshed in the mailing list last year. :)
- camus2 13y ago
  no,there is basically nodejitsu,strongloop and joyent but no Foundation. NodeJs is managed by private businesses which purpose are only to care about the interest of their shareholders, not nodejs or opensource on the node community. I guess NodeJS will be more like Nginx than Python in the way it will be managed. IE a free version + some premium services/packages... I would not rely too much on npm in the future though.
- Oculus 13y ago
  Unfortunately, I think this is the one big issue barring Node from wide adoption. I love Node.js and the surrounding ecosystem, but all these companies fighting one another can't possibly be good for the community.
joeevans1000 13y ago
Well. This is the week I started really getting into node. It's also the week I found about this. It's all disheartening. It's probably a necessary awakening step for developers in regards to truly considering the ownership of their tools. I hope the npm replacement word is going to be as easy and short, or even more so. nnn? "nnn is not npm"?
- btd 13y ago
  Maybe just n3? PS: It is weird that node.js community well known for internal battles. Everybody throw shit at each other and nobody win from this.
petercooper 13y ago
Had to go 4 pages back in HN to find this. Guess this story is getting flagged by someone.
- imdsm 13y ago
  I saw it via Node Weekly. Wondered why I didn't see it on HN. Go to post the links, already posted. Strange!

69 points by voidfiles 13y ago

camus2 13y ago

so who owns npm?

cevn 13y ago
Well, before Jason Smith started to try to monetize npm, I would have said nobody. It's open source, right? After, well, he's the first one to do it, and it's not as though anyone else was in that space. So to me he has a better claim than Nodejitsu. It's possible that my knowledge is incomplete though so if anyone knows better please correct my misconceptions. I can't really see Nodejitsu's claim here. Also, why didn't nodejitsu voice their reservations over his use of npm before Jason decided to monetize the project? I feel as though either we don't know the whole story or Nodejitsu is pulling a fast one on the community.
- the_mitsuhiko 13y ago
  > Well, before Jason Smith started to try to monetize npm, I would have said nobody. It's open source, right? That's not what open source man. There are still copyright notices in open source code.

latj 13y ago

I pledge not to use nodejitsu or have any dealings with nodejitsu employees until I see a blog post stating that they have changed their minds and are not going to hijack npm trademark.

PlNG 13y ago
I pledge not to use nodejitsu or have any dealings with nodejitsu employees. There's nothing to stop them from saying "sorry", and equally nothing to stop them from doing it again. It should not have happened in the first place.

rlidwka 13y ago

I wonder how it relates to a few npm forks (https://github.com/rlidwka/yapm https://github.com/rlidwka/yapm, https://github.com/visionmedia/npm https://github.com/visionmedia/npm) created earlier this year, especially to second one since @visionmedia didn't change its name... And what about alternate npm-compatible registries (https://github.com/mbrevoort/node-reggie https://github.com/mbrevoort/node-reggie, https://github.com/rlidwka/sinopia https://github.com/rlidwka/sinopia, https://github.com/cnpm/cnpmjs.org https://github.com/cnpm/cnpmjs.org), not based on CouchDB? "npm" isn't only a product name anymore since it's used extremely widely, so this doesn't seem like a good thing to do.

ender7 13y ago
In the trademark world you are arguing that "npm" has become "genericized" [1]. That certainly can happen, but that would be a very hard argument to make given npm's relative youth and the lack of true use as a generic. The people you link are either forking the actual npm client (in which case they are referring to it as a proper noun), or are building their own repo architecture, in which case they refer to it as an "npm registry" or "npm repository", not just "an npm". [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark
- rlidwka 13y ago
  As far as I remember, "npm registry" is a trademark as well. Isn't it? At least, that's what is written here: https://github.com/npm/npm#legal-stuff https://github.com/npm/npm#legal-stuff . My point is: any single package README contains a phrase "install me using `npm install whatever`". It feels like it is generalized already...
malandrew 13y ago
Even without a trademark, the npm source has been Artistic License v2 for as long as I can remember, so any forks are obligated to change their name to have the right to forking the source code.

coenhyde 13y ago

Issacs wrote the initial npm and was by far the largest contributor. https://github.com/npm/npm/graphs/contributors https://github.com/npm/npm/graphs/contributors

spikels 13y ago
According to Mikeal he "wrote the original version of the npm registry". More of his thoughts on the history of NPM here: https://gist.github.com/mikeal/8947417 https://gist.github.com/mikeal/8947417
- mikealAgain 13y ago
  the registry, yes, not npm itself. isaacs also has committed more to the actual registry code than I have as well.

aioprisan 13y ago

Why hadn't nodejitsu trademarked npm beforehand, if they believed the owned the right to it?

troymc 13y ago

It's my understanding that in open source communities, the relevant trademarks are usually held by a community-led foundation (e.g. the Apache Software Foundation, the Python Software Foundation). Is there no "Node Foundation"?

rlidwka 13y ago
There is no node foundation, "Node.js" is a Joyent's trademark. We had discussed this particular bikeshed in the mailing list last year. :)
camus2 13y ago
no,there is basically nodejitsu,strongloop and joyent but no Foundation. NodeJs is managed by private businesses which purpose are only to care about the interest of their shareholders, not nodejs or opensource on the node community. I guess NodeJS will be more like Nginx than Python in the way it will be managed. IE a free version + some premium services/packages... I would not rely too much on npm in the future though.
Oculus 13y ago
Unfortunately, I think this is the one big issue barring Node from wide adoption. I love Node.js and the surrounding ecosystem, but all these companies fighting one another can't possibly be good for the community.

joeevans1000 13y ago

Well. This is the week I started really getting into node. It's also the week I found about this. It's all disheartening. It's probably a necessary awakening step for developers in regards to truly considering the ownership of their tools. I hope the npm replacement word is going to be as easy and short, or even more so. nnn? "nnn is not npm"?

btd 13y ago
Maybe just n3? PS: It is weird that node.js community well known for internal battles. Everybody throw shit at each other and nobody win from this.

petercooper 13y ago

Had to go 4 pages back in HN to find this. Guess this story is getting flagged by someone.

imdsm 13y ago
I saw it via Node Weekly. Wondered why I didn't see it on HN. Go to post the links, already posted. Strange!