5 ms·

Visit the Tenderloin in SF. Twitter came in to the community brought lots of jobs. Did that make the neighborhood better? No. What happened was that the price

by drakaal 13y ago

Visit the Tenderloin in SF. Twitter came in to the community brought lots of jobs. Did that make the neighborhood better? No. What happened was that the price of housing went up for a group of people who could already not afford it. Basically the "area" was developed but not the "community". Like an invasive species. There is nothing wrong with rabbits in general. I like them. But in Australia they are destroying the native species. As humans we have more ability to pick up an move, but we tend to not want to do so. Most of the people in the low end of the economic spectrum rent, so it is not like the increase in property values is making them rich off of their homes, instead they see rent increases. Trader Joes in the "wrong" neighborhood does the same thing. Many communities "need" a walmart because it will serve their need for cheap food and clothing, and won't raise the property values. It is easy to hate Walmart and other big box stores, but in truth, often a community needs "cheap" more than they need "good". Edit: Produce is one of the things that are hard to get in a "food desert" Trader Joe's is notorious for having expensive produce with a short life span. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/4-things-not-to-buy-at-trader-joes/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/4-things-not-to-buy-at-trader-jo...

rst 13y ago
Perhaps you're not familiar with Trader Joe's --- they are known for good food at low prices. And it's hard to see any parallel between a grocery store (open to local residents) and Twitter HQ (where most workers never interact with local residents at all).
- msmillie 13y ago
  That someone can innocently and unironically describe Trader Joe's as being "known for low prices" is really the crux of the problem here. Perhaps you're not familiar with minimum wage?
  - jessedhillon 13y ago
    It's true and what's more, TJ's is not even close to a one-stop grocery store. They have a few general interest items and a bunch of foods specific only/mostly to their store. Only a nutritionally deficient person could shop solely at TJ, for everyone else I know it's supplemental shopping. There is a lower limit to your wealth before you get to the point where you're in the market for supplemental groceries. *source: I lived above a TJ's in Berkeley for a few years.
    - fr0sty 13y ago
      > Only a nutritionally deficient person could shop solely at TJ. I shop almost exclusively at Trader Joe's* and am not (to my knowledge at least) nutritionally deficient. I get fruits, vegetables, dairy, meats, eggs, bread/cereal, and the odd snack. What am I missing?
      - jessedhillon 13y ago
        In my experience, while it's true that technically they have items for every section of the food pyramid, you're often limited to a very small selection within many of those categories. Maybe your store is better stocked than mine was, but I could only eat there if I had the same few meals repeatedly. I'll admit to a small bit of hyperbole in calling that nutritional deficiency, I should have better called that a distinct lack of variety.
  - zenocon 13y ago
    http://m.traderjoes.com/fearless-flyer/article.asp?article_id=1335 http://m.traderjoes.com/fearless-flyer/article.asp?article_i... http://thebillfold.com/2013/08/price-comparison-battle-safeway-vs-trader-joes-vs-costco-vs-casa-lucas/ http://thebillfold.com/2013/08/price-comparison-battle-safew... http://www.checkbook.org/interactive/spmkt/other/t/article.cfm http://www.checkbook.org/interactive/spmkt/other/t/article.c... > Trader Joe’s received higher overall quality ratings than Dominick’s and Jewel-Osco, and charges similar prices. I could go on, but I guess you can do your own research. Seriously, their prices are on average, lower than most.
  - 300bps 13y ago
    My wife and I buy about 20 different items weekly from Trader Joes because it does have the cheapest prices on those 20 items. Speaking of minimum wage... Trader Joe's pays substantially above it. My niece works there and as a stock clerk she gets paid substantially over minimum wage and has health benefits from them.
  - 11thEarlOfMar 13y ago
    Not sure what you are getting at. Trader's pays very well: "...full-time crew members can start in the $40,000 to $60,000 a year range." http://womensenews.org/story/labor/130722/cashier-the-deal-ok-at-trader-joes#.Uw5dSfldW5I http://womensenews.org/story/labor/130722/cashier-the-deal-o...
    - AjithAntony 13y ago
      Uneducated, inexperienced, poor people cannot compete for a job that pays that well. It would be trivial to staff the store with much higher quality candidates from farther away. Unless this specific TJ makes an explicit commitment to hire extremely local folks, then there will not be any working there.
  - cm2012 13y ago
    Trader Joe's can get meal costs really low. If you're past the stage on only eating rice, eggs, and chopped veggies, TJs is comparable to any other store. Having lived in relatively poor neighborhoods that are not at all hip, it's not like fresh fruit is super available otherwise.
  - graylights 13y ago
    Trader Joes has low prices but they don't have the dirt cheap junk food that you might find at some stores. But you can eat cheaply at a Trader Joes. You can also eat very expensively if you go into some their specialty stuff.
  - antidaily 13y ago
    They put a Whole Foods (definitely not known for low prices) on a vacant lot in downtown Detroit and it's doing great.
benched 13y ago
As someone who lived very close to a Walmart-centered ecosystem for several years, including working there, I'll also add that while it isn't Gucci, there's nothing really wrong with the stuff Walmart sells, from a poor person's practical point of view. It's just regular, everyday useful stuff.
- Zelphyr 13y ago
  Except the food which, on the whole, just isn't healthy.
  - fr0sty 13y ago
    > Except the food which, on the whole, just isn't healthy. Care to elaborate? Assuming the Walmart has their standard grocery section they will sell fresh fruits/vegetables, meat, dairy, eggs, grains and the like. It may not be the highest quality but it won't kill you.
    - AjithAntony 13y ago
      Agreed. The assortments available at all of my local Walmarts are on par with the local big box grocery stores. This includes produce, bakery, deli, and prepared items.
- drakaal 13y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that it was bad. There is a lot of fights around organics, and made in the US, and such. Walmart tends to optimize for price rather than low environmental impact, or made in the US. Trader Joes tends to optimize differently.
- brenschluss 13y ago
  I think a large past of the anger against Walmart is not about their products; it's about their poor economic practices - underpaying people, being effectively subsidized as their workers are on food stamps, and the deleterious effect they have on local neighborhood stores.
aetherson 13y ago
Could we find some nuance between "poor people are going to be wiped out by invasive rich/middle class people," and "there are no losers to gentrification, ever"? It seems clear that when a neighborhood gentrifies, some of incumbent residents will find their lives improved (perhaps because: a job is created that they get, they own property which is now more valuable, the neighborhood is safer, schools are better), while others will find their lives worsened (because they are renters who can no longer afford their home or neighborhood). Whenever we have these kinds of discussions, I want to know what the alternatives are. Granted that gentrification is a mixed bag, is there a plausible alternative which helps anyone in these neighborhoods?
- Qworg 13y ago
  Mandate that the new businesses hire only locals. I think this handily solves the problem - rents can't go up too much, otherwise the possible employees leave and the business shutters. Locals are employed, business runs, things improve in the neighbourhood and lift all boats.
  - ef4 13y ago
    That doesn't solve the problem at all. The "lift all boats" outcome is exactly what activists are afraid of, because if that actually happens it makes the neighborhood "more desirable", and new people will start getting interested in moving in. Those people provide upward pressure on rents. And once new people move in, they would now be "locals" and eligible for the jobs, too. There's no logical way to satisfy these anti-gentrification groups because what they're afraid of is quite literally "the neighborhood getting nicer". Instead of making their cause "keep the rent low by keeping the town crappy", they should make their cause "raise wages so we can afford a nicer town".
    - Qworg 13y ago
      The business has to charge more in order to pay the newly increased wages that are necessary in order to hire the wealthier people who now desire to live in the improved neighbourhood. I don't think they're afraid of "the neighbourhood getting nicer". I think they're afraid of people who don't know the local situation "helping" them out - "for their own good" of course. It is the same problems that countries face who work with the IMF/World Bank. Who wouldn't want free money?
thedufer 13y ago
That's a terrible counterexample. How can we possibly draw parallels between Twitter, which has very specific high-education employment requirements, and TJs, which is exactly the opposite? TJs has no need to import labor when it opens a new store - its cheaper to hire locally. Completely different situation. With regards to your edit: Not sure how no produce is better than produce with a short expiration. Also, anecdotally, I've never had this problem (although I largely eat their bananas, which have easy tells for how long they'll last and are amazingly cheap).

by drakaal 13y ago

rst 13y ago

Perhaps you're not familiar with Trader Joe's --- they are known for good food at low prices. And it's hard to see any parallel between a grocery store (open to local residents) and Twitter HQ (where most workers never interact with local residents at all).

msmillie 13y ago
That someone can innocently and unironically describe Trader Joe's as being "known for low prices" is really the crux of the problem here. Perhaps you're not familiar with minimum wage?
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  It's true and what's more, TJ's is not even close to a one-stop grocery store. They have a few general interest items and a bunch of foods specific only/mostly to their store. Only a nutritionally deficient person could shop solely at TJ, for everyone else I know it's supplemental shopping. There is a lower limit to your wealth before you get to the point where you're in the market for supplemental groceries. *source: I lived above a TJ's in Berkeley for a few years.
  - fr0sty 13y ago
    > Only a nutritionally deficient person could shop solely at TJ. I shop almost exclusively at Trader Joe's* and am not (to my knowledge at least) nutritionally deficient. I get fruits, vegetables, dairy, meats, eggs, bread/cereal, and the odd snack. What am I missing?
    - jessedhillon 13y ago
      In my experience, while it's true that technically they have items for every section of the food pyramid, you're often limited to a very small selection within many of those categories. Maybe your store is better stocked than mine was, but I could only eat there if I had the same few meals repeatedly. I'll admit to a small bit of hyperbole in calling that nutritional deficiency, I should have better called that a distinct lack of variety.
- zenocon 13y ago
  http://m.traderjoes.com/fearless-flyer/article.asp?article_id=1335 http://m.traderjoes.com/fearless-flyer/article.asp?article_i... http://thebillfold.com/2013/08/price-comparison-battle-safeway-vs-trader-joes-vs-costco-vs-casa-lucas/ http://thebillfold.com/2013/08/price-comparison-battle-safew... http://www.checkbook.org/interactive/spmkt/other/t/article.cfm http://www.checkbook.org/interactive/spmkt/other/t/article.c... > Trader Joe’s received higher overall quality ratings than Dominick’s and Jewel-Osco, and charges similar prices. I could go on, but I guess you can do your own research. Seriously, their prices are on average, lower than most.
- 300bps 13y ago
  My wife and I buy about 20 different items weekly from Trader Joes because it does have the cheapest prices on those 20 items. Speaking of minimum wage... Trader Joe's pays substantially above it. My niece works there and as a stock clerk she gets paid substantially over minimum wage and has health benefits from them.
- 11thEarlOfMar 13y ago
  Not sure what you are getting at. Trader's pays very well: "...full-time crew members can start in the $40,000 to $60,000 a year range." http://womensenews.org/story/labor/130722/cashier-the-deal-ok-at-trader-joes#.Uw5dSfldW5I http://womensenews.org/story/labor/130722/cashier-the-deal-o...
  - AjithAntony 13y ago
    Uneducated, inexperienced, poor people cannot compete for a job that pays that well. It would be trivial to staff the store with much higher quality candidates from farther away. Unless this specific TJ makes an explicit commitment to hire extremely local folks, then there will not be any working there.
- cm2012 13y ago
  Trader Joe's can get meal costs really low. If you're past the stage on only eating rice, eggs, and chopped veggies, TJs is comparable to any other store. Having lived in relatively poor neighborhoods that are not at all hip, it's not like fresh fruit is super available otherwise.
- graylights 13y ago
  Trader Joes has low prices but they don't have the dirt cheap junk food that you might find at some stores. But you can eat cheaply at a Trader Joes. You can also eat very expensively if you go into some their specialty stuff.
- antidaily 13y ago
  They put a Whole Foods (definitely not known for low prices) on a vacant lot in downtown Detroit and it's doing great.

benched 13y ago

As someone who lived very close to a Walmart-centered ecosystem for several years, including working there, I'll also add that while it isn't Gucci, there's nothing really wrong with the stuff Walmart sells, from a poor person's practical point of view. It's just regular, everyday useful stuff.

Zelphyr 13y ago
Except the food which, on the whole, just isn't healthy.
- fr0sty 13y ago
  > Except the food which, on the whole, just isn't healthy. Care to elaborate? Assuming the Walmart has their standard grocery section they will sell fresh fruits/vegetables, meat, dairy, eggs, grains and the like. It may not be the highest quality but it won't kill you.
  - AjithAntony 13y ago
    Agreed. The assortments available at all of my local Walmarts are on par with the local big box grocery stores. This includes produce, bakery, deli, and prepared items.
drakaal 13y ago
I didn't mean to imply that it was bad. There is a lot of fights around organics, and made in the US, and such. Walmart tends to optimize for price rather than low environmental impact, or made in the US. Trader Joes tends to optimize differently.
brenschluss 13y ago
I think a large past of the anger against Walmart is not about their products; it's about their poor economic practices - underpaying people, being effectively subsidized as their workers are on food stamps, and the deleterious effect they have on local neighborhood stores.

aetherson 13y ago

Could we find some nuance between "poor people are going to be wiped out by invasive rich/middle class people," and "there are no losers to gentrification, ever"? It seems clear that when a neighborhood gentrifies, some of incumbent residents will find their lives improved (perhaps because: a job is created that they get, they own property which is now more valuable, the neighborhood is safer, schools are better), while others will find their lives worsened (because they are renters who can no longer afford their home or neighborhood). Whenever we have these kinds of discussions, I want to know what the alternatives are. Granted that gentrification is a mixed bag, is there a plausible alternative which helps anyone in these neighborhoods?

Qworg 13y ago
Mandate that the new businesses hire only locals. I think this handily solves the problem - rents can't go up too much, otherwise the possible employees leave and the business shutters. Locals are employed, business runs, things improve in the neighbourhood and lift all boats.
- ef4 13y ago
  That doesn't solve the problem at all. The "lift all boats" outcome is exactly what activists are afraid of, because if that actually happens it makes the neighborhood "more desirable", and new people will start getting interested in moving in. Those people provide upward pressure on rents. And once new people move in, they would now be "locals" and eligible for the jobs, too. There's no logical way to satisfy these anti-gentrification groups because what they're afraid of is quite literally "the neighborhood getting nicer". Instead of making their cause "keep the rent low by keeping the town crappy", they should make their cause "raise wages so we can afford a nicer town".
  - Qworg 13y ago
    The business has to charge more in order to pay the newly increased wages that are necessary in order to hire the wealthier people who now desire to live in the improved neighbourhood. I don't think they're afraid of "the neighbourhood getting nicer". I think they're afraid of people who don't know the local situation "helping" them out - "for their own good" of course. It is the same problems that countries face who work with the IMF/World Bank. Who wouldn't want free money?

thedufer 13y ago

That's a terrible counterexample. How can we possibly draw parallels between Twitter, which has very specific high-education employment requirements, and TJs, which is exactly the opposite? TJs has no need to import labor when it opens a new store - its cheaper to hire locally. Completely different situation. With regards to your edit: Not sure how no produce is better than produce with a short expiration. Also, anecdotally, I've never had this problem (although I largely eat their bananas, which have easy tells for how long they'll last and are amazingly cheap).