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I agree with you, but the reality is that most people go to college 'to get a good job'. So most people expect college to train them for that job, and most empl

I agree with you, but the reality is that most people go to college 'to get a good job'. So most people expect college to train them for that job, and most employers have come to expect people to hit the ground running. My grandfather started working as a draftsman for a pipeline company after the Korean War. He had nothing more than a high school diploma, and he said he took the job because "it paid $3 an hour and I liked to draw". He spent the first year being trained in a special facility the company had set up just for that purpose. What company does that nowdays? I'm sure there has to be some, but it's far from the norm.

scott_s 17y ago
I think the expectation for any engineer fresh out of school is that they will need some on-the-job training to learn how to be an engineer in practice.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  Yes, but the key word is some. There is a major difference between expecting someone to grow through experience and giving them some initial guidance and training on that specific job and teaching someone everything they need to know in practice when they have some hazy idea of the background theory. This is particularly true in software. I do not know about other companies, but when I got my first "real programming job" I was given two weeks of on the job training. That focused on things like that particular company's code layout standard, naming conventions, an overview of the code base already written for the piece I would be working on, and some of the HR/administration requirements and procedures. I was expected to know how to program already.
  - scott_s 17y ago
    "Programming" and "Software Engineering" are different things. Are there any engineers in the audience - not software engineers, or even computer engineers, but mechanical, electrical or civil engineers? My guess is that there's about the same level of "what you learned in school is never enough for practice" as with the "real" engineering disciplines, but I don't have any experience with it myself.
    - timwiseman 17y ago
      "Programming" and "Software Engineering" are different things. Very true, but beside the point. My point is that while some exceptions do exist, most companies expect you to start knowing how to do at least the basics of your job. I laid out my experiences when I was starting as a programmer to illustrate the level of on-the-job-training common. That was the last job I had any official OJT and the last one I had that was remotely entry level. Since then, I haven't even been given that kind of official walk through the code and their standards. I have been handed problems to solve and either given or ended up writing their formatting standards/naming conventions. Of course, I deliberately try to find jobs with small organizations or small, insulated sub-organizations within larger companies since I think small teams tend to work best, so YMMV. As a side note (now I'm going off point a little bit), most people I talk to do not currently consider "Software Engineer" an entry level position but rather something worked up to after doing things like programming. This may change if there was a more focused specialty in college.

scott_s 17y ago

I think the expectation for any engineer fresh out of school is that they will need some on-the-job training to learn how to be an engineer in practice.

timwiseman 17y ago
Yes, but the key word is some. There is a major difference between expecting someone to grow through experience and giving them some initial guidance and training on that specific job and teaching someone everything they need to know in practice when they have some hazy idea of the background theory. This is particularly true in software. I do not know about other companies, but when I got my first "real programming job" I was given two weeks of on the job training. That focused on things like that particular company's code layout standard, naming conventions, an overview of the code base already written for the piece I would be working on, and some of the HR/administration requirements and procedures. I was expected to know how to program already.
- scott_s 17y ago
  "Programming" and "Software Engineering" are different things. Are there any engineers in the audience - not software engineers, or even computer engineers, but mechanical, electrical or civil engineers? My guess is that there's about the same level of "what you learned in school is never enough for practice" as with the "real" engineering disciplines, but I don't have any experience with it myself.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    "Programming" and "Software Engineering" are different things. Very true, but beside the point. My point is that while some exceptions do exist, most companies expect you to start knowing how to do at least the basics of your job. I laid out my experiences when I was starting as a programmer to illustrate the level of on-the-job-training common. That was the last job I had any official OJT and the last one I had that was remotely entry level. Since then, I haven't even been given that kind of official walk through the code and their standards. I have been handed problems to solve and either given or ended up writing their formatting standards/naming conventions. Of course, I deliberately try to find jobs with small organizations or small, insulated sub-organizations within larger companies since I think small teams tend to work best, so YMMV. As a side note (now I'm going off point a little bit), most people I talk to do not currently consider "Software Engineer" an entry level position but rather something worked up to after doing things like programming. This may change if there was a more focused specialty in college.