5 ms·

That sounds like the kind of growing pains experienced when you set up any new largish development environment. If we're up and running with ecosystem X, we fo

That sounds like the kind of growing pains experienced when you set up any new largish development environment. If we're up and running with ecosystem X, we forget how much work it took to get there, because it was amortized over time. When we start out with a new ecosystem Y, we spend a lot of time in the steep part of the learning curve before reaching Hello World. Java is, IMHO, the worst for this. Just curious, I've never installed Mono, but my first thought would have been to look for a PPA. Are there none out there? Let someone else figure out the dependencies and configs for you.

jongalloway2 13y ago
Looks like maybe this one - latest Monodevelop PPA, last built 13 hours ago: https://launchpad.net/~keks9n/+archive/monodevelop-latest https://launchpad.net/~keks9n/+archive/monodevelop-latest
alkonaut 13y ago
An IDE should aim to pass a simple UX test which is: after installing the IDE with no prerequisites and no further configuration (no I don't want to create an env var, specify where I keep my compiler or ...), a hello world program should be possible to run straight away.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Having the libraries and language installed is not the IDE's job. The IDE is a glorified editor with more stuff. Eclupse and Idea need Java to be installed for example. And I'd guess VS needs .NET to be installed.
  - alkonaut 13y ago
    It's not a text editor, it's the whole experience. I never even want to worry about where libraries are or where the compiler executables are. I just want to edit and run code. If the compiler comes with libraries, debugger and editor, or if the IDE comes with libraries and compiler doesn't matter. I want the matlab experience, not the gcc experience. Example: A java IDE that can't set up java automatically for me (OR detect/configure an existing install without my intervention) is disappointing.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      >Example: A java IDE that can't set up java automatically for me (OR detect/configure an existing install without my intervention) is disappointing. Well, it might be disappointing, but that describes all of them. Idea and Eclipse don't automatically install Java. So it's hardly unique to MonoDevelop.
      - alkonaut 13y ago
        While it is disappointing if it doesn't have a single setup experience, they should at least try to locate & use an existing install without the user having to specify a path on disk or an env-var for example. Two installs but no gluing is at least acceptable.
  - klibertp 13y ago
    > The IDE is a glorified editor with more stuff. If only more people thought like this then I wouldn't be looked at funny when calling my Emacs an IDE. Instead I have some 90% of PyCharm functionality (+ Org Mode), but I constantly hear that it doesn't count because "I had to configure all these plugins" and so on... And last time I checked VS installed everything it needed to run by itself - it didn't even ask if I want it IIRC. Dunno about Eclipse.
    - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
      Eclipse and IntelliJ don't come with the compiler, probably due to licensing. Also keep in mind that VS only works in Windows, not as cross platform as these two. Installing for Single-Family-OS (Windows...) vs different OSes => different complexity.
      - alkonaut 13y ago
        Which is why I think that IDE makers that don't make their language are at a disadvantage (that they should try to work around), and language makers that don't provide an IDE don't take full advantage of their situation. A language/platform without a good dev experience is just not complete. The dev experience is a huge part of what a lang/platform does, and should influence design decisions at every level, i.e. "do we have all the debugging/hot-deploy/profiling entry points in place", or "could this grammar be better for providing autocomplete in invalid synax"? As for java IDE's: it can't be rocket science to detect & use existing java installations in a good way, or even download & install them in the background (even with licensing issues).
        edwinnathaniel 13y ago
        I believe Eclipse and IntelliJ do detect & use existing (default) Java installations, just can't download&install them in the background (plus there might be complication in doing so: what's the recent version of Java that should be installed? can we guaranteed Oracle won't break the URL, etc etc). See how Linux+BSD users install Oracle Java....
        13y ago

jongalloway2 13y ago

Looks like maybe this one - latest Monodevelop PPA, last built 13 hours ago: https://launchpad.net/~keks9n/+archive/monodevelop-latest https://launchpad.net/~keks9n/+archive/monodevelop-latest

alkonaut 13y ago

An IDE should aim to pass a simple UX test which is: after installing the IDE with no prerequisites and no further configuration (no I don't want to create an env var, specify where I keep my compiler or ...), a hello world program should be possible to run straight away.

coldtea 13y ago
Having the libraries and language installed is not the IDE's job. The IDE is a glorified editor with more stuff. Eclupse and Idea need Java to be installed for example. And I'd guess VS needs .NET to be installed.
- alkonaut 13y ago
  It's not a text editor, it's the whole experience. I never even want to worry about where libraries are or where the compiler executables are. I just want to edit and run code. If the compiler comes with libraries, debugger and editor, or if the IDE comes with libraries and compiler doesn't matter. I want the matlab experience, not the gcc experience. Example: A java IDE that can't set up java automatically for me (OR detect/configure an existing install without my intervention) is disappointing.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >Example: A java IDE that can't set up java automatically for me (OR detect/configure an existing install without my intervention) is disappointing. Well, it might be disappointing, but that describes all of them. Idea and Eclipse don't automatically install Java. So it's hardly unique to MonoDevelop.
    - alkonaut 13y ago
      While it is disappointing if it doesn't have a single setup experience, they should at least try to locate & use an existing install without the user having to specify a path on disk or an env-var for example. Two installs but no gluing is at least acceptable.
- klibertp 13y ago
  > The IDE is a glorified editor with more stuff. If only more people thought like this then I wouldn't be looked at funny when calling my Emacs an IDE. Instead I have some 90% of PyCharm functionality (+ Org Mode), but I constantly hear that it doesn't count because "I had to configure all these plugins" and so on... And last time I checked VS installed everything it needed to run by itself - it didn't even ask if I want it IIRC. Dunno about Eclipse.
  - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
    Eclipse and IntelliJ don't come with the compiler, probably due to licensing. Also keep in mind that VS only works in Windows, not as cross platform as these two. Installing for Single-Family-OS (Windows...) vs different OSes => different complexity.
    - alkonaut 13y ago
      Which is why I think that IDE makers that don't make their language are at a disadvantage (that they should try to work around), and language makers that don't provide an IDE don't take full advantage of their situation. A language/platform without a good dev experience is just not complete. The dev experience is a huge part of what a lang/platform does, and should influence design decisions at every level, i.e. "do we have all the debugging/hot-deploy/profiling entry points in place", or "could this grammar be better for providing autocomplete in invalid synax"? As for java IDE's: it can't be rocket science to detect & use existing java installations in a good way, or even download & install them in the background (even with licensing issues).
      - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
        I believe Eclipse and IntelliJ do detect & use existing (default) Java installations, just can't download&install them in the background (plus there might be complication in doing so: what's the recent version of Java that should be installed? can we guaranteed Oracle won't break the URL, etc etc). See how Linux+BSD users install Oracle Java....
      - 13y ago