4 ms·

Some people believe lives are not just something you could take, you know, even if it's not people from the crew.

by dethstar 13y ago

baddox 13y ago
So then what is a crew on a normal ship going to do if pirates board?
- lutusp 13y ago
  > So then what is a crew on a normal ship going to do if pirates board? You're not thinking this through. The reason pirates can board ships with relative safety is because the operators have realized that if they arm the crews, the pirates will simply kill everyone on board as a precaution. So a decision was made to avoid too much a show of force, because that would only invite retaliation in kind. After a ship has been taken over, that's different -- that's the time for a show of force, but training and arming cargo vessel crews as part-time soldiers was obviously a bad idea.
  - baddox 13y ago
    I don't think you're following the entire path of this comment tree. I realize all and agree with most of those things you said, but they're not immediately relevant. I was responding to dethstar's comment, which indicated that "some people" don't think the lives of people should be taken even if they're attempting to pirate a ship. You seem to recognize that force (and I assume you mean potentially deadly force) should be used against pirates, which is also my view. Dethstar claims that some people dispute this view.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > I was responding to dethstar's comment, which indicated that "some people" don't think the lives of people should be taken even if they're attempting to pirate a ship. But that's true, and it's not based on humanitarian grounds, but pragmatic ones -- if we arm the crews of cargo ships and adopt a policy of killing people who try to board on the high seas, the pirates will simply shoot back sooner, board by force, and kill the crew as a precaution. I speak as someone who had an armed standoff with pirates in the Indian Ocean, far from land, during my around-the-world sail (http://arachnoid.com/sailbook http://arachnoid.com/sailbook). As the pirates came alongside I didn't shoot, I only showed my gun, and the pirates had to decide whether they wanted to try to board a boat under gunfire. If I had started shooting instead, that would have invited instant retaliation from the armed pirates and I would have lost. A small example but a relevant one.
      - baddox 13y ago
        > But that's true, and it's not based on humanitarian grounds, but pragmatic ones That's a very different belief than the one mentioned by dethstar. Dethstar was referring to killing pirates with poison gas on an unmanned ship, so as far as I can tell it's a moral or humanitarian belief. Your belief is pragmatic, but it wouldn't apply to unmanned ships where there is no crew to be in danger.
eurleif 13y ago
So you write "ENTIRE SHIP FILLED WITH POISON GAS. IF YOU BREAK IN, YOU WILL DIE." in multiple languages in a place where no one could miss it. It's about the deterrent factor more than anything else.
- lutusp 13y ago
  If this was a feasible idea, they would have done it already, to discourage piracy of manned ships -- just have the cargo areas sealed up and filled with poison gas. But it's not feasible for multiple reasons: * A modern cargo ship isn't a rigid, airtight vessel, it's somewhat flexible and certainly not airtight above the waterline. * Also, the cargo on a modern cargo ship isn't inside the ship as in the old "On the Waterfront" days when unskilled laborers loaded and unloaded ships, it's all out on the deck in the form of cargo containers: http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/544/overrides/rio-20-un-climate-conference-shipping-container-homes-ship_54414_600x450.jpg http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/0...

Some people believe lives are not just something you could take, you know, even if it's not people from the crew.

baddox 13y ago

So then what is a crew on a normal ship going to do if pirates board?

lutusp 13y ago
> So then what is a crew on a normal ship going to do if pirates board? You're not thinking this through. The reason pirates can board ships with relative safety is because the operators have realized that if they arm the crews, the pirates will simply kill everyone on board as a precaution. So a decision was made to avoid too much a show of force, because that would only invite retaliation in kind. After a ship has been taken over, that's different -- that's the time for a show of force, but training and arming cargo vessel crews as part-time soldiers was obviously a bad idea.
- baddox 13y ago
  I don't think you're following the entire path of this comment tree. I realize all and agree with most of those things you said, but they're not immediately relevant. I was responding to dethstar's comment, which indicated that "some people" don't think the lives of people should be taken even if they're attempting to pirate a ship. You seem to recognize that force (and I assume you mean potentially deadly force) should be used against pirates, which is also my view. Dethstar claims that some people dispute this view.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > I was responding to dethstar's comment, which indicated that "some people" don't think the lives of people should be taken even if they're attempting to pirate a ship. But that's true, and it's not based on humanitarian grounds, but pragmatic ones -- if we arm the crews of cargo ships and adopt a policy of killing people who try to board on the high seas, the pirates will simply shoot back sooner, board by force, and kill the crew as a precaution. I speak as someone who had an armed standoff with pirates in the Indian Ocean, far from land, during my around-the-world sail (http://arachnoid.com/sailbook http://arachnoid.com/sailbook). As the pirates came alongside I didn't shoot, I only showed my gun, and the pirates had to decide whether they wanted to try to board a boat under gunfire. If I had started shooting instead, that would have invited instant retaliation from the armed pirates and I would have lost. A small example but a relevant one.
    - baddox 13y ago
      > But that's true, and it's not based on humanitarian grounds, but pragmatic ones That's a very different belief than the one mentioned by dethstar. Dethstar was referring to killing pirates with poison gas on an unmanned ship, so as far as I can tell it's a moral or humanitarian belief. Your belief is pragmatic, but it wouldn't apply to unmanned ships where there is no crew to be in danger.

eurleif 13y ago

So you write "ENTIRE SHIP FILLED WITH POISON GAS. IF YOU BREAK IN, YOU WILL DIE." in multiple languages in a place where no one could miss it. It's about the deterrent factor more than anything else.

lutusp 13y ago
If this was a feasible idea, they would have done it already, to discourage piracy of manned ships -- just have the cargo areas sealed up and filled with poison gas. But it's not feasible for multiple reasons: * A modern cargo ship isn't a rigid, airtight vessel, it's somewhat flexible and certainly not airtight above the waterline. * Also, the cargo on a modern cargo ship isn't inside the ship as in the old "On the Waterfront" days when unskilled laborers loaded and unloaded ships, it's all out on the deck in the form of cargo containers: http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/544/overrides/rio-20-un-climate-conference-shipping-container-homes-ship_54414_600x450.jpg http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/0...