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Doesn't it seem wasteful to have four walls a few feet away from another four walls? I'm open to the idea that it's more dignified to live in a unique, isolate

Doesn't it seem wasteful to have four walls a few feet away from another four walls? I'm open to the idea that it's more dignified to live in a unique, isolated dwelling, but it seems terribly inefficient to have 10 tiny houses versus a single-building condo with 10 dwellings of identical square footage.

thejteam 13y ago
I'm not familiar with the floorplan but it might be necessary to have an extra window or two to let more light in. At least one of the designs in the article power was limited to 80W of solar panels. Can't afford to waste anything on artificial light with those constraints.
- MiguelHudnandez 13y ago
  You could save nearly 40% building costs by having 10 adjacent units versus ten free-standing structures nearby. That money could go into more solar or to build more units. You go from 40 exterior walls (10 units x 4 walls) to 4 exterior walls at about 60% of the area. I can't tackle the math mentally to figure out how the roofing situation changes, but I imagine it is drastically cheaper as well. The roof would be two very long sides instead of 20 small sides. The more I think about it, the more I am coming around on the "dignity" argument and I think having a space that is completely "yours," including a porch, some steps, and some garden area, will increase the amount of ownership felt. Want pink flamingos? You've got a hundred square feet of lawn that's yours.
  - jonlucc 13y ago
    I think you can have the best of both worlds with alternating doors. A big long structure where every other door is on the same side of the building, such that each person gets a small porch, small "yard" and their own door. This still limits the natural light.
    - Crito 13y ago
      That would certainly provide some isolation from your direct neighbors. Not really sure if that would be a good or a bad thing.
      - saraid216 13y ago
        That can be mitigated by having a common space outside, as well as having similar setups next door so that, while you might not see others in your own building, you'll be able to wave at people next door. And if enough people do that, and then go down to meet them in person, you'll start bumping into your own building-mates. I'm not actually describing theory; I have a friend in Sweden who has made friends this way.
  - vacri 13y ago
    You could save nearly 40% building costs by having 10 adjacent units versus ten free-standing structures nearby. There's more to construction costs than just walls and roofing. Plumbing, electrical, kitchen fixtures, heating...
ansible 13y ago
That's also my thought, but there may be more factors at play. Any apartment building has significantly more regulations applying to it. Firewalls, lights in the stairwells (if multi-story), handicapped access, minimum sizes for doors and hallways, etc.. I don't know the whole story there. The main thing from my point of view is that are these homes being built within walking distance of basic services (like a grocery store) and work opportunities?
- baddox 13y ago
  You could still do one story "apartments," right? Like, literally just these same little houses, except each sharing a wall with the next.
  - HarryHirsch 13y ago
    If you use shared walls you will need proper soundproofing, and you can't do that in wood any longer. You'd have to build in bricks instead of wood and sheetrock, and if you do multistorey you'd have to put in a soundproofing layer in the floor as well. It's a quality-of-life issue, and it's especially important to keep the peace in a confined space. A colleague from Kenya said this: "If you can hear your neighbours you know you live in a slum." Americans have gotten used to poor quality in construction, which seems part of the appeal of single-family housing in the US, even if you plunk down half a million dollars it's still sheetrock and chipboard, it's shocking to see for any foreigner. For this purpose, and on this scale, what you suggest is entirely unfit for purpose.
    - baddox 13y ago
      I'm not completely convinced that hearing neighbours is that large of a problem for that many people. I can hear everything through the walls in my $1800 studio apartment (a very modern building), but hey, maybe that's just another example of San Francisco being a horrible place to live.
      - wwweston 13y ago
Crito 13y ago
Having lived in several row-homes, those air-gaps have several benefits. They act as firebreaks for pests and rot, actual fires, and significantly reduce cross-unit noise. They also allow (perhaps minimal) natural light in through the side.
- cc439 13y ago
  I can't express how much I wish my apartment had just 1 window on the shared interior wall. It would turn a lightless cave into perfection. I wonder what the energy trade off would be. I would think proper insulation (and heat from natural sunlight in winter) could work out to be more efficient than having the lights on in the middle of the day.
  - pavel_lishin 13y ago
    Does your apartment not have any windows at all? At least in New York, I believe that a bedroom is required to have a window.
    - cpwright 13y ago
      A bedroom may be required to have a window (and a closet), but an office, dining room, or "bonus" room doesn't. Thus you have apartments or houses, where people sleep in offices, dining rooms, etc. Legislating this just causes people to work around it.
      - mindslight 13y ago
        The window requirement for a bedroom mainly stems from fire code - it's a second exit.
    - cc439 13y ago
      It has a window, it just on a side of the building that's in permanent shade. The view is worth it though, I can see ~15 miles from my porch since I'm on the side of a mountain (which causes the permanent shade since it wraps around ~270 degrees behind the building.
jack-r-abbit 13y ago
Part of it could be that 10 tiny homes can be relocated a lot easier than a 10 unit building. These could possibly be "mass produced" in a large warehouse and transported to various places that can handle various numbers of them.
qq66 13y ago
I don't think it's more dignified to live in an isolated dwelling (some the most expensive residences in the world are in apartment buildings), but it does really help with the Tragedy of the Commons. In my apartment building in San Francisco, people do all sorts of anti-social things like having their dog crap in an elevator and not cleaning it up, and as a result we have to pay considerable monthly fees for the building staff to manage these issues. Having a detached property makes it a lot harder to shirk your responsibilities -- if your dog craps it will be on your own property instead of in common space.

thejteam 13y ago

I'm not familiar with the floorplan but it might be necessary to have an extra window or two to let more light in. At least one of the designs in the article power was limited to 80W of solar panels. Can't afford to waste anything on artificial light with those constraints.

MiguelHudnandez 13y ago
You could save nearly 40% building costs by having 10 adjacent units versus ten free-standing structures nearby. That money could go into more solar or to build more units. You go from 40 exterior walls (10 units x 4 walls) to 4 exterior walls at about 60% of the area. I can't tackle the math mentally to figure out how the roofing situation changes, but I imagine it is drastically cheaper as well. The roof would be two very long sides instead of 20 small sides. The more I think about it, the more I am coming around on the "dignity" argument and I think having a space that is completely "yours," including a porch, some steps, and some garden area, will increase the amount of ownership felt. Want pink flamingos? You've got a hundred square feet of lawn that's yours.
- jonlucc 13y ago
  I think you can have the best of both worlds with alternating doors. A big long structure where every other door is on the same side of the building, such that each person gets a small porch, small "yard" and their own door. This still limits the natural light.
  - Crito 13y ago
    That would certainly provide some isolation from your direct neighbors. Not really sure if that would be a good or a bad thing.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      That can be mitigated by having a common space outside, as well as having similar setups next door so that, while you might not see others in your own building, you'll be able to wave at people next door. And if enough people do that, and then go down to meet them in person, you'll start bumping into your own building-mates. I'm not actually describing theory; I have a friend in Sweden who has made friends this way.
- vacri 13y ago
  You could save nearly 40% building costs by having 10 adjacent units versus ten free-standing structures nearby. There's more to construction costs than just walls and roofing. Plumbing, electrical, kitchen fixtures, heating...

ansible 13y ago

That's also my thought, but there may be more factors at play. Any apartment building has significantly more regulations applying to it. Firewalls, lights in the stairwells (if multi-story), handicapped access, minimum sizes for doors and hallways, etc.. I don't know the whole story there. The main thing from my point of view is that are these homes being built within walking distance of basic services (like a grocery store) and work opportunities?

baddox 13y ago
You could still do one story "apartments," right? Like, literally just these same little houses, except each sharing a wall with the next.
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  If you use shared walls you will need proper soundproofing, and you can't do that in wood any longer. You'd have to build in bricks instead of wood and sheetrock, and if you do multistorey you'd have to put in a soundproofing layer in the floor as well. It's a quality-of-life issue, and it's especially important to keep the peace in a confined space. A colleague from Kenya said this: "If you can hear your neighbours you know you live in a slum." Americans have gotten used to poor quality in construction, which seems part of the appeal of single-family housing in the US, even if you plunk down half a million dollars it's still sheetrock and chipboard, it's shocking to see for any foreigner. For this purpose, and on this scale, what you suggest is entirely unfit for purpose.
  - baddox 13y ago
    I'm not completely convinced that hearing neighbours is that large of a problem for that many people. I can hear everything through the walls in my $1800 studio apartment (a very modern building), but hey, maybe that's just another example of San Francisco being a horrible place to live.
    - wwweston 13y ago

Crito 13y ago

Having lived in several row-homes, those air-gaps have several benefits. They act as firebreaks for pests and rot, actual fires, and significantly reduce cross-unit noise. They also allow (perhaps minimal) natural light in through the side.

cc439 13y ago
I can't express how much I wish my apartment had just 1 window on the shared interior wall. It would turn a lightless cave into perfection. I wonder what the energy trade off would be. I would think proper insulation (and heat from natural sunlight in winter) could work out to be more efficient than having the lights on in the middle of the day.
- pavel_lishin 13y ago
  Does your apartment not have any windows at all? At least in New York, I believe that a bedroom is required to have a window.
  - cpwright 13y ago
    A bedroom may be required to have a window (and a closet), but an office, dining room, or "bonus" room doesn't. Thus you have apartments or houses, where people sleep in offices, dining rooms, etc. Legislating this just causes people to work around it.
    - mindslight 13y ago
      The window requirement for a bedroom mainly stems from fire code - it's a second exit.
  - cc439 13y ago
    It has a window, it just on a side of the building that's in permanent shade. The view is worth it though, I can see ~15 miles from my porch since I'm on the side of a mountain (which causes the permanent shade since it wraps around ~270 degrees behind the building.

jack-r-abbit 13y ago

Part of it could be that 10 tiny homes can be relocated a lot easier than a 10 unit building. These could possibly be "mass produced" in a large warehouse and transported to various places that can handle various numbers of them.

qq66 13y ago

I don't think it's more dignified to live in an isolated dwelling (some the most expensive residences in the world are in apartment buildings), but it does really help with the Tragedy of the Commons. In my apartment building in San Francisco, people do all sorts of anti-social things like having their dog crap in an elevator and not cleaning it up, and as a result we have to pay considerable monthly fees for the building staff to manage these issues. Having a detached property makes it a lot harder to shirk your responsibilities -- if your dog craps it will be on your own property instead of in common space.