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You are showing a significant bias by laying the burden of proof on those saying this has an effect on people. 'Innocent till proven guilty' is a principle of t

by dejb 17y ago

You are showing a significant bias by laying the burden of proof on those saying this has an effect on people. 'Innocent till proven guilty' is a principle of the justice system, not science. You could have made these same comments about the health problems associated with smoking in the 60s and you would have been wrong. The original poster laid out a reasonable argument for why the default position should not be to assume there is no effect. A less biased and more useful statement would have been "there have been enough studies done on this to show that wifi 'sensitivity' is unlikely to exist". If that was the case I'd like to know.

jerf 17y ago
When I said referenced "double-blind studies", I was referring to the ones that were done. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity#Etiology_and_evidence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivit... . The burden of proof is indeed on those who continue to claim it exists in the face of strong, peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary. Science has done its bit. A scientist goes into the experiment with an open mind, and is ever mindful of the possibility of future evidence causing the most likely hypothesis to change, but is not obligated to keep their mind so open that they never decide anything, even after the evidence is gathered and the peer review is done. I think you are criticizing me based on the belief that there were no experiments done, and since that is not true, you would agree your criticism is invalid. If that is not true and you still think these experiments are not adequate, and "science" still has some sort of obligation to continue investigation, I would say, what would discharge that obligation? By which I mean, give me a concrete, immobile standard for what it would take to convince you before the fact that the investigation has been done, regardless of the outcome, not after the experiments. As I referenced in another message, you can always move the goalposts, but this is a sign of weakness in a position, not the strength some people seem to take it to be.
- dejb 17y ago
  OK. firstly I don't have any particular belief in EM-sensitivity. I am just as much a believer is science as you. What I objected to was the clear bias you demonstrated in your post. The readiness to declare the 'total failure of anyone to demonstrate "sensitivity"' rather than to provide any references suggested an extreme partisanship on one side of the argument. The link that you finally provided has some useful information. To me it reads that suggest mixed results but mostly favouring no effect. If I where a betting person I'd say maybe there is a 10% chance that the effect does exist in some form based on my reading of that information. Maybe your interpretation of the probabilities implied by the studies is different to mine. But it leads me to agree with the conclusions of the authors of the meta study that "more research into this phenomenon is required".
scott_s 17y ago
The burden of proof is always on those who make extraordinary claims.
- dejb 17y ago
  Yes but why are you defining this as an extraordinary claim? The thread starter post of makes a good case (in my view) that EM interference would be expected by default. If you disagree with this you should address it instead of assuming that everyone shares your assumptions. This is what I mean about bias.
  - scott_s 17y ago
    Someone else in the thread provides an excellent reasoning why such a low amount of energy is unlikely to make a difference. I say it's an extraordinary claim because if it were true, it would imply fundamental changes in our understanding of how our bodies work, most people suffer no ill-effects, and I previously knew that double-blind studies could not corroborate the claims. By definition, any claim that changes our understanding of anything is extraordinary, and it requires supporting evidence.

by dejb 17y ago

jerf 17y ago

When I said referenced "double-blind studies", I was referring to the ones that were done. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity#Etiology_and_evidence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivit... . The burden of proof is indeed on those who continue to claim it exists in the face of strong, peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary. Science has done its bit. A scientist goes into the experiment with an open mind, and is ever mindful of the possibility of future evidence causing the most likely hypothesis to change, but is not obligated to keep their mind so open that they never decide anything, even after the evidence is gathered and the peer review is done. I think you are criticizing me based on the belief that there were no experiments done, and since that is not true, you would agree your criticism is invalid. If that is not true and you still think these experiments are not adequate, and "science" still has some sort of obligation to continue investigation, I would say, what would discharge that obligation? By which I mean, give me a concrete, immobile standard for what it would take to convince you before the fact that the investigation has been done, regardless of the outcome, not after the experiments. As I referenced in another message, you can always move the goalposts, but this is a sign of weakness in a position, not the strength some people seem to take it to be.

dejb 17y ago
OK. firstly I don't have any particular belief in EM-sensitivity. I am just as much a believer is science as you. What I objected to was the clear bias you demonstrated in your post. The readiness to declare the 'total failure of anyone to demonstrate "sensitivity"' rather than to provide any references suggested an extreme partisanship on one side of the argument. The link that you finally provided has some useful information. To me it reads that suggest mixed results but mostly favouring no effect. If I where a betting person I'd say maybe there is a 10% chance that the effect does exist in some form based on my reading of that information. Maybe your interpretation of the probabilities implied by the studies is different to mine. But it leads me to agree with the conclusions of the authors of the meta study that "more research into this phenomenon is required".

scott_s 17y ago

The burden of proof is always on those who make extraordinary claims.

dejb 17y ago
Yes but why are you defining this as an extraordinary claim? The thread starter post of makes a good case (in my view) that EM interference would be expected by default. If you disagree with this you should address it instead of assuming that everyone shares your assumptions. This is what I mean about bias.
- scott_s 17y ago
  Someone else in the thread provides an excellent reasoning why such a low amount of energy is unlikely to make a difference. I say it's an extraordinary claim because if it were true, it would imply fundamental changes in our understanding of how our bodies work, most people suffer no ill-effects, and I previously knew that double-blind studies could not corroborate the claims. By definition, any claim that changes our understanding of anything is extraordinary, and it requires supporting evidence.