5 ms·

No -- An attitude of "someone on HN says 'vaccines may not always be safe'" is not real science. Unless you want to provide any actual studies to back up your

No -- An attitude of "someone on HN says 'vaccines may not always be safe'" is not real science. Unless you want to provide any actual studies to back up your claim, you're just spouting the sort of pseudoscience that gets children killed. While it's true that some very small percent of the population can have an allergic reaction to some vaccines, the risk of your child dying from, say, polio is much much higher than the risk of him/her dying from the vaccine.

tosseraccount 13y ago
Do you have a specific objection to anything I said?
- tosseraccount 13y ago
  "vaccines may not always be safe" is a true statement.
scrabble 13y ago
While I don't take the attitude that vaccines are to be avoided -- and myself, my wife, and children are vaccinated against all the standard stuff aside from the yearly flu shot -- my grandfather was in a coma for 18 months from Guillain–Barré syndrome which was a reaction to a vaccination. It's scary stuff, but incredibly rare.
- aestra 13y ago
  >my grandfather was in a coma for 18 months from Guillain–Barré syndrome which was a reaction to a vaccination I'll follow up your useless anecdote with another useless anecdote. I had a close family friend die of the flu. In his 50s. The chance of developing Guillain–Barré syndrome is under one additional case per million vaccinations. [1] and catching the flu the regular way can contribute to developing Guillain-Barré syndrome and getting infected by influenza itself increases both the risk of death (up to 1 in 10,000) and increases the risk of developing Guillain-Barré syndrome to a much higher level than the highest level of suspected vaccine involvement (approx. 10 times higher by recent estimates). The WHO reports "Every winter, tens of millions of people get the flu. Most are only ill and out of work for a week, yet the elderly are at a higher risk of death from the illness. We know the worldwide death toll exceeds a few hundred thousand people a year, but even in developed countries the numbers are uncertain, because medical authorities don't usually verify who actually died of influenza and who died of a flu-like illness." [2] As I said before, all medical interventions go through a "Risk–benefit analysis" and no medical intervention is without risk. But do the benefits of getting the flu shot far outweigh the risks? That's for you to decide, but anecdote does not make data. Your family is far more likely to contract Guillain–Barré syndrome from the flu than the flu vaccine. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syn... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza
  - tosseraccount 13y ago
    5 people getting maimed from poliovirus vacine (maybe) is just an anecdote?
    - ars 13y ago
      > 5 people getting maimed from poliovirus vacine (maybe) is just an anecdote? No, it's fiction. It has nothing to do with poliovirus OR a vaccine. Except perhaps in your imagination.
Domenic_S 13y ago
> the risk of your child dying from, say, polio is much much higher than the risk of him/her dying from the vaccine. That isn't the case, assuming you're non-Amish in the US is it? The last naturally occurring case of polio in the United States was in 1979, and health officials consider the disease eliminated in the Western Hemisphere. So your risk of contracting wild polio is effectively 0. If the death risk of the polio vaccine is 1:1,000,000, you would still have a higher risk of dying from the vaccine. NB: I believe in vaccines, but I don't think it's wise to try and make arguments in the quoted way.
- hobs 13y ago
  What about herd immunity? We all need to get the vaccine so that those who definitely cannot are protected from the fact that they cannot contract it from anyone around them. Polio still exists, and not vaccinating yourself might just start to wear away at that defense. Earlier this year, researchers confirmed that a 2010 whooping cough outbreak in California, the nation's worst in over 50 years, was spread by children whose parents applied for non-medical exemptions to school vaccination requirements, many for religious reasons. http://www.healthline.com/health-news/children-anti-vaccination-movement-leads-to-disease-outbreaks-120312 http://www.healthline.com/health-news/children-anti-vaccinat...
- ars 13y ago
  > So your risk of contracting wild polio is effectively 0. Hardly. Polio has been detected in sewage in the Middle East (multiple countries). So far the only actual cases are in Syria, but that's pure luck (1% chance per disease per person), it could spread very very easily.
  - Domenic_S 13y ago
    I can't believe you quoted that and missed where I said specifically I was talking about the non-amish US population, and the western hemisphere.
    - ars 13y ago
      I didn't miss it at all. That was exactly what I was replying to! There is this perception of immunity in the US, but people travel. A lot. If the US slows down polio immunization they will see cases. (Not sure what Amish has to do with it, but Amish have lots of contact with non-Amish people. Most especially they grow food which is a very common vector.)
tosseraccount 13y ago
Really? USA is polio free. 5 people who would not get polio got it. From vaccine. Are these facts?
- ars 13y ago
  I'll repeat myself: What does vaccine have to do with this story? Their cases have nothing whatsoever to do with vaccination.
- Fomite 13y ago
  Polio-like paralysis can be caused by a number of enteroviruses, and there are cases in the United States every year. This is a large number of cases, but there's no reason to believe it has anything to do with polio or the vaccine (the U.S. does not use the attenuated vaccine that occasionally causes polio-like side effects). Rather, it's cause is likely a as yet unknown enterovirus.

tosseraccount 13y ago

Do you have a specific objection to anything I said?

tosseraccount 13y ago
"vaccines may not always be safe" is a true statement.

scrabble 13y ago

While I don't take the attitude that vaccines are to be avoided -- and myself, my wife, and children are vaccinated against all the standard stuff aside from the yearly flu shot -- my grandfather was in a coma for 18 months from Guillain–Barré syndrome which was a reaction to a vaccination. It's scary stuff, but incredibly rare.

aestra 13y ago
>my grandfather was in a coma for 18 months from Guillain–Barré syndrome which was a reaction to a vaccination I'll follow up your useless anecdote with another useless anecdote. I had a close family friend die of the flu. In his 50s. The chance of developing Guillain–Barré syndrome is under one additional case per million vaccinations. [1] and catching the flu the regular way can contribute to developing Guillain-Barré syndrome and getting infected by influenza itself increases both the risk of death (up to 1 in 10,000) and increases the risk of developing Guillain-Barré syndrome to a much higher level than the highest level of suspected vaccine involvement (approx. 10 times higher by recent estimates). The WHO reports "Every winter, tens of millions of people get the flu. Most are only ill and out of work for a week, yet the elderly are at a higher risk of death from the illness. We know the worldwide death toll exceeds a few hundred thousand people a year, but even in developed countries the numbers are uncertain, because medical authorities don't usually verify who actually died of influenza and who died of a flu-like illness." [2] As I said before, all medical interventions go through a "Risk–benefit analysis" and no medical intervention is without risk. But do the benefits of getting the flu shot far outweigh the risks? That's for you to decide, but anecdote does not make data. Your family is far more likely to contract Guillain–Barré syndrome from the flu than the flu vaccine. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syn... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza
- tosseraccount 13y ago
  5 people getting maimed from poliovirus vacine (maybe) is just an anecdote?
  - ars 13y ago
    > 5 people getting maimed from poliovirus vacine (maybe) is just an anecdote? No, it's fiction. It has nothing to do with poliovirus OR a vaccine. Except perhaps in your imagination.

Domenic_S 13y ago

> the risk of your child dying from, say, polio is much much higher than the risk of him/her dying from the vaccine. That isn't the case, assuming you're non-Amish in the US is it? The last naturally occurring case of polio in the United States was in 1979, and health officials consider the disease eliminated in the Western Hemisphere. So your risk of contracting wild polio is effectively 0. If the death risk of the polio vaccine is 1:1,000,000, you would still have a higher risk of dying from the vaccine. NB: I believe in vaccines, but I don't think it's wise to try and make arguments in the quoted way.

hobs 13y ago
What about herd immunity? We all need to get the vaccine so that those who definitely cannot are protected from the fact that they cannot contract it from anyone around them. Polio still exists, and not vaccinating yourself might just start to wear away at that defense. Earlier this year, researchers confirmed that a 2010 whooping cough outbreak in California, the nation's worst in over 50 years, was spread by children whose parents applied for non-medical exemptions to school vaccination requirements, many for religious reasons. http://www.healthline.com/health-news/children-anti-vaccination-movement-leads-to-disease-outbreaks-120312 http://www.healthline.com/health-news/children-anti-vaccinat...
ars 13y ago
> So your risk of contracting wild polio is effectively 0. Hardly. Polio has been detected in sewage in the Middle East (multiple countries). So far the only actual cases are in Syria, but that's pure luck (1% chance per disease per person), it could spread very very easily.
- Domenic_S 13y ago
  I can't believe you quoted that and missed where I said specifically I was talking about the non-amish US population, and the western hemisphere.
  - ars 13y ago
    I didn't miss it at all. That was exactly what I was replying to! There is this perception of immunity in the US, but people travel. A lot. If the US slows down polio immunization they will see cases. (Not sure what Amish has to do with it, but Amish have lots of contact with non-Amish people. Most especially they grow food which is a very common vector.)

tosseraccount 13y ago

Really? USA is polio free. 5 people who would not get polio got it. From vaccine. Are these facts?

ars 13y ago
I'll repeat myself: What does vaccine have to do with this story? Their cases have nothing whatsoever to do with vaccination.
Fomite 13y ago
Polio-like paralysis can be caused by a number of enteroviruses, and there are cases in the United States every year. This is a large number of cases, but there's no reason to believe it has anything to do with polio or the vaccine (the U.S. does not use the attenuated vaccine that occasionally causes polio-like side effects). Rather, it's cause is likely a as yet unknown enterovirus.