3 ms·

>"Systematic - that means happening all over the place. I don't think it is - the article points out a few brutal abuses of police power and doesn't give statis

by xiaoma 17y ago

>"Systematic - that means happening all over the place. I don't think it is - the article points out a few brutal abuses of police power and doesn't give statistics for how common it is or put it in context of other nations." Amnesty international does that. http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100 This article was focused on the issue of how little most Americans care about the excessive powers granted to their police. Your own reaction only serves to emphasize the point. If you really don't see anything wrong with having the largest prisoner population in the world (beating out Russia and China both in absolute and per capita terms) the second highest rate of executions, hundreds of people being tased to death by officers, officers being able to arrest people in their own homes for exercising their rights, and widespread surveillance on citizens without warrants, then reason.com may not be the site for you.

bokonist 17y ago
If you really don't see anything wrong with having the largest prisoner population in the world The U.S. also has a very high crime rate compared to China and the European countries. More criminals means more people in prison. The American legal system is like the bad parent who alternates between being over-lenient and being violently strict. Much of the time policing is actually far too lax. Most people selling drugs are never caught, most gang killings are never tracked down, and most home burglars are never captured. This lax policing allows too much crime, and eventually the police are forced to react. They do so in a blunt and ham-fisted manner. Cops break into the wrong homes in an attempt to make headline grabbing drug busts. Think of it in terms of math: which has a higher prisoner population, the country that catches the perpetrator of 98% of crimes, or the country that catches perpertrators only 10% of the time? The answer is the second country has a much higher criminal population. The lower probability of getting caught increases the amount of crime, which means total jail population is much higher. Asian countries like Singapore and China on the other hand are the consistently stern parent. In Singapore there is a 99% chance of getting caught if you murdered someone. Thus there are virtually no murders, and a very small prisoner population. Both sides of the law and order debate need to realize that American law enforcement is simultaneously too tax and too heavy handed. This is not a contradiction, its the reality. Many American cities (Philadelphia, Baltimore) have homicide rates that have been unseen in Western civilization since medieval times. This is a huge problem. It needs to be addressed. Any proposed reform that tries to lower police abuse without also lowering the crime rate will result in failure ( and by increasing crime, will in the long term actually increase police abuses).
- gnaritas 17y ago
  > The U.S. also has a very high crime rate compared to China and the European countries. More criminals means more people in prison. That's a natural result of outlawing so much victim-less behavior. If for example, drugs were legal, much of that crime would simply disappear and our prisons would be much less crowded.
  - bokonist 17y ago
    Neither Singapore nor China allows drugs, yet their crime rate is much lower and their prisons much less crowded. Most European countries also outlaw drugs.
    - xiaoma 17y ago
      They don't have a "war on drugs", either. Here in Taiwan, there are some very strict drug laws on the books, and yet weed and club drugs are pretty common, as they are in Singapore. Unlike the US, though, enforcement of drug laws isn't a high priority. There are people in jail for drug selling and production, but very few for casual use.
      - bokonist 17y ago
        There are people in jail for drug selling and production, but very few for casual use. The U.S. is the same way: http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/10so.htm http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/10so.htm "The Michigan Department of Corrections just finished a study of their inmate population. They discovered that out of 47,000 inmates, only 15 people were incarcerated on first-time drug possession charges."
        xiaoma 17y ago
        No, it's not the same. Even a cursory look at the issue shows that much of the US prison population is due to "3 strikes" laws. By looking only at first time possession charges, that entire group is missed. Furthermore, police in the US have the power to seize cars, seize money, and quite number of other things without warrant, based upon the suspicion of drugs being involved. They can't do that here.

by xiaoma 17y ago

bokonist 17y ago

If you really don't see anything wrong with having the largest prisoner population in the world The U.S. also has a very high crime rate compared to China and the European countries. More criminals means more people in prison. The American legal system is like the bad parent who alternates between being over-lenient and being violently strict. Much of the time policing is actually far too lax. Most people selling drugs are never caught, most gang killings are never tracked down, and most home burglars are never captured. This lax policing allows too much crime, and eventually the police are forced to react. They do so in a blunt and ham-fisted manner. Cops break into the wrong homes in an attempt to make headline grabbing drug busts. Think of it in terms of math: which has a higher prisoner population, the country that catches the perpetrator of 98% of crimes, or the country that catches perpertrators only 10% of the time? The answer is the second country has a much higher criminal population. The lower probability of getting caught increases the amount of crime, which means total jail population is much higher. Asian countries like Singapore and China on the other hand are the consistently stern parent. In Singapore there is a 99% chance of getting caught if you murdered someone. Thus there are virtually no murders, and a very small prisoner population. Both sides of the law and order debate need to realize that American law enforcement is simultaneously too tax and too heavy handed. This is not a contradiction, its the reality. Many American cities (Philadelphia, Baltimore) have homicide rates that have been unseen in Western civilization since medieval times. This is a huge problem. It needs to be addressed. Any proposed reform that tries to lower police abuse without also lowering the crime rate will result in failure ( and by increasing crime, will in the long term actually increase police abuses).

gnaritas 17y ago
> The U.S. also has a very high crime rate compared to China and the European countries. More criminals means more people in prison. That's a natural result of outlawing so much victim-less behavior. If for example, drugs were legal, much of that crime would simply disappear and our prisons would be much less crowded.
- bokonist 17y ago
  Neither Singapore nor China allows drugs, yet their crime rate is much lower and their prisons much less crowded. Most European countries also outlaw drugs.
  - xiaoma 17y ago
    They don't have a "war on drugs", either. Here in Taiwan, there are some very strict drug laws on the books, and yet weed and club drugs are pretty common, as they are in Singapore. Unlike the US, though, enforcement of drug laws isn't a high priority. There are people in jail for drug selling and production, but very few for casual use.
    - bokonist 17y ago
      There are people in jail for drug selling and production, but very few for casual use. The U.S. is the same way: http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/10so.htm http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/10so.htm "The Michigan Department of Corrections just finished a study of their inmate population. They discovered that out of 47,000 inmates, only 15 people were incarcerated on first-time drug possession charges."
      - xiaoma 17y ago
        No, it's not the same. Even a cursory look at the issue shows that much of the US prison population is due to "3 strikes" laws. By looking only at first time possession charges, that entire group is missed. Furthermore, police in the US have the power to seize cars, seize money, and quite number of other things without warrant, based upon the suspicion of drugs being involved. They can't do that here.