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On the other hand, destroying evidence once a lawsuit is filed is a definite no-no. But what's one more no-no in a career of no-no's? An account compromise is

by gojomo 13y ago

On the other hand, destroying evidence once a lawsuit is filed is a definite no-no. But what's one more no-no in a career of no-no's? An account compromise is possible. Perhaps they're about to take some steps they'd previously publicly assured people they wouldn't, and don't want the obsolete assurances to be easy-to-reference.

SwellJoe 13y ago
That's a good theory...they may be figuring out that they can't possibly provide what they've promised, and are wanting to not have an easy trail of evidence of exactly what has been promised. But, I don't think deleting things from Twitter has ever been considered "destroying evidence" in court. But, I suppose there's a first for everything. Usually, it'd be manipulating or deleting emails that have been subpoenaed, or other sorts of contractually binding documents (email can be a contractually binding document, Twitter probably not...yet). I dunno. Maybe we're about to see something interesting and new happen in the courts. I guess we're certain to, because Bitcoin hasn't had much play in the courts, yet. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm vaguely concerned that things that should be civil matters may end up becoming criminal matters because of the way Bitcoin is viewed by law enforcement and states. But, then again, this may very well be something that should become a criminal matter. I don't know enough to know.
- DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
  It's also likely that Twitter still retains a copy of the Tweet even when deleted, and will be asked for copies during the discovery process if it comes to a lawsuit.
  - uptown 13y ago
    Even if Twitter doesn't, Gnip (Twitter's authorized data-reseller) does.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    The Library of Congress periodically archives public tweets. http://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2013/01/update-on-the-twitter-archive-at-the-library-of-congress/ http://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2013/01/update-on-the-twitter-archi...
- andylynch 13y ago
  These messages would almost certainly be subject to a legal hold, even if no-one's actually started formal proceedings yet. Removing them from public view on Twitter is probably fine from a legal standpoint, deleting them entirely would be a very bad idea.
  - jnbiche 13y ago
    Can you remove Tweets on Twitter from public view without deleting them? I don't frequently use Twitter, so don't know.
    - nacs 13y ago
      You could mark your entire profile/timeline as private/protected in Twitter but don't think you can hide individual posts.
nikcub 13y ago
old lawyer advice: "the only good time to destroy evidence is before it becomes evidence"
- roc 13y ago
  Which is the line they use when advising you to establish a good data-retention-policy. Because any one-time 'reduction' effort is trivially connectable to intent by just about any court. Even when it's innocent.
muyuu 13y ago
This is criminal activity. They are tanking their market on purpose to buy up at firesale prices and make the most of their insider position with their customers locked without withdrawals. I wonder what do they have in mind but this is a bonafide bucket shop and I have little doubt that they will be facing criminal charges.
- Fuxy 13y ago
  Well the good news is there's an opening for the next big bitcoin marketplace now since no sane person would ever trust mtgox ever again.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Assuming for the moment that they are doing that - is it really criminal activity? I understand that it would be in regulated markets, but Bitcoin isn't regulated.
  - muyuu 13y ago
    It doesn't matter what they deal with. MtGox is a financial services provider registered with the Japanese FSA that transmits money in multiple "recognised" currencies (AUD CAD CHF CNY DKK EUR GBP HKD JPY NOK NZD PLN RUB SEK SGD THB USD). They are subject to Japanese law and International law. And also to US and EU law regarding AML/KYC of their citizens. Bitcoin might not be regulated in most places to different degrees, but that doesn't mean you are above the law because you deal with Bitcoin among other things.
    - at-fates-hands 13y ago
      >>They are subject to Japanese law and International law. And also to US and EU law regarding AML/KYC of their citizens. Is there any legal precedent for this? What would you sue Mt.Gox for? Do they have contracts or some form of binding agreement with people who store their BTC with them? I'm not sure they're really bound by any laws in regards to currency. Maybe contractually, but beyond that, not sure what you could sue them for without some real concrete evidence of criminal activity.

by gojomo 13y ago

SwellJoe 13y ago

That's a good theory...they may be figuring out that they can't possibly provide what they've promised, and are wanting to not have an easy trail of evidence of exactly what has been promised. But, I don't think deleting things from Twitter has ever been considered "destroying evidence" in court. But, I suppose there's a first for everything. Usually, it'd be manipulating or deleting emails that have been subpoenaed, or other sorts of contractually binding documents (email can be a contractually binding document, Twitter probably not...yet). I dunno. Maybe we're about to see something interesting and new happen in the courts. I guess we're certain to, because Bitcoin hasn't had much play in the courts, yet. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm vaguely concerned that things that should be civil matters may end up becoming criminal matters because of the way Bitcoin is viewed by law enforcement and states. But, then again, this may very well be something that should become a criminal matter. I don't know enough to know.

DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
It's also likely that Twitter still retains a copy of the Tweet even when deleted, and will be asked for copies during the discovery process if it comes to a lawsuit.
- uptown 13y ago
  Even if Twitter doesn't, Gnip (Twitter's authorized data-reseller) does.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  The Library of Congress periodically archives public tweets. http://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2013/01/update-on-the-twitter-archive-at-the-library-of-congress/ http://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2013/01/update-on-the-twitter-archi...
andylynch 13y ago
These messages would almost certainly be subject to a legal hold, even if no-one's actually started formal proceedings yet. Removing them from public view on Twitter is probably fine from a legal standpoint, deleting them entirely would be a very bad idea.
- jnbiche 13y ago
  Can you remove Tweets on Twitter from public view without deleting them? I don't frequently use Twitter, so don't know.
  - nacs 13y ago
    You could mark your entire profile/timeline as private/protected in Twitter but don't think you can hide individual posts.

nikcub 13y ago

old lawyer advice: "the only good time to destroy evidence is before it becomes evidence"

roc 13y ago
Which is the line they use when advising you to establish a good data-retention-policy. Because any one-time 'reduction' effort is trivially connectable to intent by just about any court. Even when it's innocent.

muyuu 13y ago

This is criminal activity. They are tanking their market on purpose to buy up at firesale prices and make the most of their insider position with their customers locked without withdrawals. I wonder what do they have in mind but this is a bonafide bucket shop and I have little doubt that they will be facing criminal charges.

Fuxy 13y ago
Well the good news is there's an opening for the next big bitcoin marketplace now since no sane person would ever trust mtgox ever again.
DanBC 13y ago
Assuming for the moment that they are doing that - is it really criminal activity? I understand that it would be in regulated markets, but Bitcoin isn't regulated.
- muyuu 13y ago
  It doesn't matter what they deal with. MtGox is a financial services provider registered with the Japanese FSA that transmits money in multiple "recognised" currencies (AUD CAD CHF CNY DKK EUR GBP HKD JPY NOK NZD PLN RUB SEK SGD THB USD). They are subject to Japanese law and International law. And also to US and EU law regarding AML/KYC of their citizens. Bitcoin might not be regulated in most places to different degrees, but that doesn't mean you are above the law because you deal with Bitcoin among other things.
  - at-fates-hands 13y ago
    >>They are subject to Japanese law and International law. And also to US and EU law regarding AML/KYC of their citizens. Is there any legal precedent for this? What would you sue Mt.Gox for? Do they have contracts or some form of binding agreement with people who store their BTC with them? I'm not sure they're really bound by any laws in regards to currency. Maybe contractually, but beyond that, not sure what you could sue them for without some real concrete evidence of criminal activity.