4 ms·

Eric S. Raymond only gets $20/mo on GitTip

14 points by grhmc 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
akx 13y ago
Per week.
gwern 13y ago
Are you implying he should get more?
- JohnTHaller 13y ago
  I think it's more a matter of that's probably the most anyone is getting tipped per week and they assumed it would be more. The same way people assume that flattr and similar services adds up to meaningful amounts of money on a regular basis for the large projects that use it.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    There are people who get considerably more than that on Gittip, though it's true most people don't. ESR isn't that active a coder anymore, and afaict he hasn't spent much time advertising his Gittip either, so it's extremely passive income on his part. The Gittip front page lists the top recipients, who are in the $150-650/wk range. The top few recipients are actually making the equivalent of a modest salary solely from Gittip contributions ($500/wk = $26k/yr).
  - djur 13y ago
    That isn't anywhere near the most anyone is getting per week on Gittip. The front page currently features at least 12 people getting over $100/wk. Even if ESR is doing anything worth being paid for (he certainly thinks so), I think at least some people would hesitate on the grounds of his controversial political positions.
mherrmann 13y ago
That's the problem with OS software - it's very hard to make money with it. I have a startup developing a library for web automation. First question people asked when I posted it here: "why is this not open source and why the fuck do I need to pay?".
- jh3 13y ago
  The response you're receiving seems normal if you're targeting developers.
- drewcrawford 13y ago
  I'd be interested in corresponding with you about this problem but I don't know your email.
chimeracoder 13y ago
At the risk of getting downvoted, I'm more surprised that he's earning that much. Frankly, ESR hasn't contributed that much to the FOSS world, (either as a coder or as an activist) in the last 5-10 years (ie, since 2009/2004), compared to the late 90s/early 2000s. Nowadays, the only times I hear about him are when he actively trolls the GNU listserv, which is simply counterproductive and only hurts both the free software and open source movements. For evidence, look at the search results, ordered by date, for "ESR" and mentally filter out the ones that are posts of old articles or have too few points to make the front page: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ESR#!/story/sort_by_date/0/ESR https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ESR#!/story/sort_by_date/0/ESR. The two biggest recent posts were ones where he tries to get the FSF and/or GNU projects to "admit" that "open source" is superior. Fortunately, IIRC, both were flagged off the front page relatively quickly (possibly for setting off the flamewar detector).
- djur 13y ago
  ESR seems to like to take over maintainership of projects. There's nothing wrong with that, but I know plenty of people who maintain lots of low-profile projects who don't make a point of listing just how many projects they're responsible for. He also has a long history of turning whatever one-off tool he built for a particular project into its own project (that nobody but him uses or develops) and citing that as well. He's done some decent work but that doesn't seem to satisfy him. He has to be a leading light and a visionary, and he doesn't seem to know or care that describing oneself as such is off-putting.
jnbiche 13y ago
1. It's per week. 2. Even well-known, active coders only receive ~$200/week. The creator of Drupal looks like the highest-paid coder at $420 (I know Chad Whitacre is a coder but I'm guessing much of his compensation is for his valuable work on gittip?). 3. Yes, we've all read Cathedral and the Bazaar -- an influential work in hacker and open source culture. And we've all read his opinionated guide on how to be a hacker. But I had never heard or used any of his listed tools: reposurgeon, deheader, coverity-submit, irkerd, doclifter, and cvs-fast-export. Also, it's not clear if he wrote those or maintains them. I'm sure the GPS and gif libraries he maintains are important, but I wasn't personally familiar with them. My point is: what is Eric S. Raymond doing these days, other than maintaining a few interesting repos? And why do we owe him a living?
- fecak 13y ago
  On his site he claims "One way or another, I have a couple meg of code and documentation in the core toolset of every general-purpose Linux and BSD distribution in existence." Assuming that is true, would your opinion about 'owing him a living' be different? I'm not suggesting that it should change your opinion, but it's an interesting concept (to me anyway) to consider if one's unpaid past work that benefits many others is a legacy worthy of some compensation.
  - pedrocr 13y ago
    >One way or another, I have a couple meg of code and documentation in the core toolset of every general-purpose Linux and BSD distribution in existence Is this true though? Wikipedia only lists CML2 (the rejected new config system for the kernel). Grepping through Ubuntu's /usr/share/doc doesn't turn up much either (libpng, libgif and some minor stuff).
    - fecak 13y ago
      I wasn't claiming it was or wasn't (those are ESR's words). My point was that if it were true, would the poster's opinion be different. I'd be curious as to how many people would actually pay past open source contributors due to some personal sense of obligation or perhaps respect. Some in this thread are asking 'what have you done for me lately?', but would that feeling change if someone had done substantial (and assume again unpaid) work that comprises the foundations of today's preferred toolset. Just an interesting concept to consider.
IvyMike 13y ago
It seems relevant to recall Raymond's VA Linux windfall post from back in the day, if for no other reason than it illuminates his position on wealth. https://lwn.net/1999/1216/a/esr-rich.html https://lwn.net/1999/1216/a/esr-rich.html
- fecak 13y ago
  He also wrote this http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2001022100120OPBZCY http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2001022100120OPBZCY
scottydelta 13y ago
This is because everyone in developer's community is asking for tips and donations even if they can afford a standard living without it. I remember reading an article which conveyed, ask for tips and donations only if your livelihood depends on it and it sounds very reasonable.

14 points by grhmc 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

akx 13y ago

Per week.

gwern 13y ago

Are you implying he should get more?

JohnTHaller 13y ago
I think it's more a matter of that's probably the most anyone is getting tipped per week and they assumed it would be more. The same way people assume that flattr and similar services adds up to meaningful amounts of money on a regular basis for the large projects that use it.
- _delirium 13y ago
  There are people who get considerably more than that on Gittip, though it's true most people don't. ESR isn't that active a coder anymore, and afaict he hasn't spent much time advertising his Gittip either, so it's extremely passive income on his part. The Gittip front page lists the top recipients, who are in the $150-650/wk range. The top few recipients are actually making the equivalent of a modest salary solely from Gittip contributions ($500/wk = $26k/yr).
- djur 13y ago
  That isn't anywhere near the most anyone is getting per week on Gittip. The front page currently features at least 12 people getting over $100/wk. Even if ESR is doing anything worth being paid for (he certainly thinks so), I think at least some people would hesitate on the grounds of his controversial political positions.

mherrmann 13y ago

That's the problem with OS software - it's very hard to make money with it. I have a startup developing a library for web automation. First question people asked when I posted it here: "why is this not open source and why the fuck do I need to pay?".

jh3 13y ago
The response you're receiving seems normal if you're targeting developers.
drewcrawford 13y ago
I'd be interested in corresponding with you about this problem but I don't know your email.

chimeracoder 13y ago

At the risk of getting downvoted, I'm more surprised that he's earning that much. Frankly, ESR hasn't contributed that much to the FOSS world, (either as a coder or as an activist) in the last 5-10 years (ie, since 2009/2004), compared to the late 90s/early 2000s. Nowadays, the only times I hear about him are when he actively trolls the GNU listserv, which is simply counterproductive and only hurts both the free software and open source movements. For evidence, look at the search results, ordered by date, for "ESR" and mentally filter out the ones that are posts of old articles or have too few points to make the front page: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ESR#!/story/sort_by_date/0/ESR https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ESR#!/story/sort_by_date/0/ESR. The two biggest recent posts were ones where he tries to get the FSF and/or GNU projects to "admit" that "open source" is superior. Fortunately, IIRC, both were flagged off the front page relatively quickly (possibly for setting off the flamewar detector).

djur 13y ago
ESR seems to like to take over maintainership of projects. There's nothing wrong with that, but I know plenty of people who maintain lots of low-profile projects who don't make a point of listing just how many projects they're responsible for. He also has a long history of turning whatever one-off tool he built for a particular project into its own project (that nobody but him uses or develops) and citing that as well. He's done some decent work but that doesn't seem to satisfy him. He has to be a leading light and a visionary, and he doesn't seem to know or care that describing oneself as such is off-putting.

jnbiche 13y ago

1. It's per week. 2. Even well-known, active coders only receive ~$200/week. The creator of Drupal looks like the highest-paid coder at $420 (I know Chad Whitacre is a coder but I'm guessing much of his compensation is for his valuable work on gittip?). 3. Yes, we've all read Cathedral and the Bazaar -- an influential work in hacker and open source culture. And we've all read his opinionated guide on how to be a hacker. But I had never heard or used any of his listed tools: reposurgeon, deheader, coverity-submit, irkerd, doclifter, and cvs-fast-export. Also, it's not clear if he wrote those or maintains them. I'm sure the GPS and gif libraries he maintains are important, but I wasn't personally familiar with them. My point is: what is Eric S. Raymond doing these days, other than maintaining a few interesting repos? And why do we owe him a living?

fecak 13y ago
On his site he claims "One way or another, I have a couple meg of code and documentation in the core toolset of every general-purpose Linux and BSD distribution in existence." Assuming that is true, would your opinion about 'owing him a living' be different? I'm not suggesting that it should change your opinion, but it's an interesting concept (to me anyway) to consider if one's unpaid past work that benefits many others is a legacy worthy of some compensation.
- pedrocr 13y ago
  >One way or another, I have a couple meg of code and documentation in the core toolset of every general-purpose Linux and BSD distribution in existence Is this true though? Wikipedia only lists CML2 (the rejected new config system for the kernel). Grepping through Ubuntu's /usr/share/doc doesn't turn up much either (libpng, libgif and some minor stuff).
  - fecak 13y ago
    I wasn't claiming it was or wasn't (those are ESR's words). My point was that if it were true, would the poster's opinion be different. I'd be curious as to how many people would actually pay past open source contributors due to some personal sense of obligation or perhaps respect. Some in this thread are asking 'what have you done for me lately?', but would that feeling change if someone had done substantial (and assume again unpaid) work that comprises the foundations of today's preferred toolset. Just an interesting concept to consider.

IvyMike 13y ago

It seems relevant to recall Raymond's VA Linux windfall post from back in the day, if for no other reason than it illuminates his position on wealth. https://lwn.net/1999/1216/a/esr-rich.html https://lwn.net/1999/1216/a/esr-rich.html

fecak 13y ago
He also wrote this http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2001022100120OPBZCY http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2001022100120OPBZCY

scottydelta 13y ago

This is because everyone in developer's community is asking for tips and donations even if they can afford a standard living without it. I remember reading an article which conveyed, ask for tips and donations only if your livelihood depends on it and it sounds very reasonable.