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So we are saying that most of the people out there are of no use to the economy and thus, most probably, to society. Well, welcome to fascism 2.0, this vision i

by kfk 13y ago

So we are saying that most of the people out there are of no use to the economy and thus, most probably, to society. Well, welcome to fascism 2.0, this vision is elitist, it creates a huge power lobby (the entity paying up the basic incomes...), and it sees people as sheep with no brains.

Broken_Hippo 13y ago
How exactly do you come up with that? I understand the concept, agree with it to a point (it is rather exaggerated) and I am no facist and do not have enough power, percieved or monetary, to be able to be an effective elitist. I'm anti-huge power lobby, unless you can find one that does much more good than harm. People are under pressure to be sheep already if you work one of these 'jobs'. I take the notion and look at how doing fixes could make society freer and better. My curiosity is how exactly you came to the conclusion of this being a facist and elitist idea?
- kfk 13y ago
  > I'm anti-huge power lobby, unless you can find one that does much more good than harm This is the core of the thinking behind a dictatorship > People are under pressure to be sheep already if you work one of these 'jobs' What pressure? People are asked to work in exchange of money. Which means this system, however imperfect, still sees people as useful and productive and, thus, still gives them a chance And it's elitist because you are creating a clear division between those that are productive and those that bring no value and that actually are a negative investment (because they do "fake" jobs). You really think you can put a mentality like that in place without creating elitism and potentially an even more uneven society than today?
  - Broken_Hippo 13y ago
    I obviously didn't proofread that first one. I am in general against centralized power unless it does more good than harm. Healthcare, for example, holds power, but I'm surely convinced that the decentralized power that health insurance companies have is superior to government-managed health care that is done right (I'm in Norway now, and from what I can observe, works for the user's health benefit) Asked to work? Most of us Have to. At the bottom rungs, keep your mouth shut, dress like the accepted average, and fit in with the company's culture. No creativity or input actually needed. And no questions trying to learn things. You don't need to know what the management knows. This isn't pressure? How many 32 year olds working in fast food views their job as useful or productive? Using the 32 year old with the fast food as an example... do they feel they are valued? Likely not. Fake job, but it is a job. I somehow doubt this would change much.
pyoung 13y ago
>...no use to the economy and thus, most probably, to society. I think you made too big of a jump there. We are already being confronted with a situation where vast quantities of people are no use to the modern economy. The fact is technology is going to replace a lot of what we traditionally considered work. This does not mean that these people are worthless, they still hold social and cultural value to society (well, most people, there will always be people who are a drain on society, but we have that now and I don't think that will ever change). >... it creates a huge power lobby... We already have that. And to make matters worse, the current process of distributing welfare is highly political and manipulated by special interests. With a BI, the power stays in place, but at least the bureaucracy and special interests are removed from the process.
dllthomas 13y ago
We are saying that at some point, your time is more use to you than to us. That's hugely different than "your time is useless".

by kfk 13y ago

Broken_Hippo 13y ago

How exactly do you come up with that? I understand the concept, agree with it to a point (it is rather exaggerated) and I am no facist and do not have enough power, percieved or monetary, to be able to be an effective elitist. I'm anti-huge power lobby, unless you can find one that does much more good than harm. People are under pressure to be sheep already if you work one of these 'jobs'. I take the notion and look at how doing fixes could make society freer and better. My curiosity is how exactly you came to the conclusion of this being a facist and elitist idea?

kfk 13y ago
> I'm anti-huge power lobby, unless you can find one that does much more good than harm This is the core of the thinking behind a dictatorship > People are under pressure to be sheep already if you work one of these 'jobs' What pressure? People are asked to work in exchange of money. Which means this system, however imperfect, still sees people as useful and productive and, thus, still gives them a chance And it's elitist because you are creating a clear division between those that are productive and those that bring no value and that actually are a negative investment (because they do "fake" jobs). You really think you can put a mentality like that in place without creating elitism and potentially an even more uneven society than today?
- Broken_Hippo 13y ago
  I obviously didn't proofread that first one. I am in general against centralized power unless it does more good than harm. Healthcare, for example, holds power, but I'm surely convinced that the decentralized power that health insurance companies have is superior to government-managed health care that is done right (I'm in Norway now, and from what I can observe, works for the user's health benefit) Asked to work? Most of us Have to. At the bottom rungs, keep your mouth shut, dress like the accepted average, and fit in with the company's culture. No creativity or input actually needed. And no questions trying to learn things. You don't need to know what the management knows. This isn't pressure? How many 32 year olds working in fast food views their job as useful or productive? Using the 32 year old with the fast food as an example... do they feel they are valued? Likely not. Fake job, but it is a job. I somehow doubt this would change much.

pyoung 13y ago

>...no use to the economy and thus, most probably, to society. I think you made too big of a jump there. We are already being confronted with a situation where vast quantities of people are no use to the modern economy. The fact is technology is going to replace a lot of what we traditionally considered work. This does not mean that these people are worthless, they still hold social and cultural value to society (well, most people, there will always be people who are a drain on society, but we have that now and I don't think that will ever change). >... it creates a huge power lobby... We already have that. And to make matters worse, the current process of distributing welfare is highly political and manipulated by special interests. With a BI, the power stays in place, but at least the bureaucracy and special interests are removed from the process.

dllthomas 13y ago

We are saying that at some point, your time is more use to you than to us. That's hugely different than "your time is useless".