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Amen. Getting an A- in 9th grade may have been the best thing that may have happened to me in high school. It relieved me of the pressure to get straight A's a

by jrs235 13y ago

Amen. Getting an A- in 9th grade may have been the best thing that may have happened to me in high school. It relieved me of the pressure to get straight A's and "compete" for the top of the class. I no longer had to be driven by an external factor. In college I realized how awful things were (for those that were driven by grades). You could look around and see zombies sitting in desks. Most weren't interested in learning or thinking critically... just worried about getting the "right" answer and "good" grades. I remember the first time I "failed" and got detention in high school... it was my senior year. Thank goodness I hadn't gotten it earlier because after experiencing it, it wasn't all that bad. In fact I actually sat down and got my homework done then. Life's too short to worry about grades and failure and we only make childhood shorter by placing this pressure on our children so early.

nsxwolf 13y ago
Getting an F in the 9th grade had a somewhat different effect on me. I was initially shut out of all the non-remedial math classes after that, and over the next couple of years I fought to get into the regular or accelerated classes. The reaction was always along the lines of "Why? You've already blown it, you're not getting into a good college... just stay where you are, it will be easier for you". I did eventually get into the classes I wanted to, but they were right - I didn't get into a good college. It's interesting to have a system where you can be told you've ruined your life at 14.
- jrs235 13y ago
  That's an interesting point. My example was more like the article's dilemma... not being perfect. Your's involved an actual [F]ailure. What is a "good" college? I understand going to some colleges will give you a leg up in the "business" world. HNers and programmers tend to ride the meritocracy train and if one hops on board then the only thing that "should" matter in the eyes of HN peers is what you produce and your results. So don't get a standard job at a typical company working for the "man" where your resume has to make it through HR BS, instead start your own thing? I agree, a system where you can be told you've ruined your life at 14 is BS. I don't know the circumstances surrounding your F. Regardless, the fact that adults gave up and give up on a youth is somewhat revealing about the culture and beliefs they have... sad.
  - nsxwolf 13y ago
    I bounced around from a (non-elite) state school, to community college, and finally ended up with a CS degree from a fairly mediocre accredited private university. I had a pretty bad attitude about education after my high school experiences, so I just fancied myself as some sort of autodidact that does things his own way without concern for the "system, man". I've done well for myself as an engineer, so I feel that I cam out of it all ok. But now that I have kids, I don't really want to pass on my bad attitudes onto them, so I guess I'm facing some of the issues this article discusses.
    - jrs235 13y ago
      I just remembered a book I came across in college. I highly recommend that everyone read it, but not until after they graduate high school (otherwise fewer people would care about graduating high school). It's called The Underachiever's Manifesto is very small 4 by 6 inches and only 96 pages. It's a very fast and enjoyable read. http://www.chroniclebooks.com/titles/the-underachiever-s-manifesto.html http://www.chroniclebooks.com/titles/the-underachiever-s-man... EDIT: Your comment reminded me of this book because I want my children to read it someday (but I don't want them to get the attitude too early)...
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    FWIW, I got several Fs in middle school, went to an alternative high school with no grades, got into Amherst - where I failed two courses in my major, and eventually ended up at Google (there were 3 startups in the meantime). I think that if you want to do this successfully, you need to get really good at hacking expectations and doing end-routes around roadblocks. For me, I had the advantage of perfect scores on a bunch of my standardized tests, so I had this other credential that would make people sit up and take notice. My parents also advocated heavily for me, and I was not shy about befriending adults who I thought were more competent than my teachers and getting work/academic experience with them. I'd taken college courses at 3 different schools before applying to college (acing all of them, and in one case doubling the class average), and I'd worked for a tech startup and done good work for them, so I had plenty of people willing to write recommendations for me. The most important thing to realize if you're faced with a roadblock (and probably in life in general) is that different people are impressed by different things. You will never please everyone, but if there are some people who are impressed with you and willing to advocate for you, you can usually do an end-run around the people who think you will never amount to much. It's somewhat unfortunate that the public school system is packed with the sort of people who look at surface impressions only - think about what sort of people might be attracted to work at an institution where their own freedom to decide what to teach is itself set by bureaucrats sitting in the State House who have never gone near a classroom. It's doubly unfortunate that these are people in authority who have significant power over how our kids turn out. But the real world itself is much broader and more malleable than the classroom, and you can hack your way around a bad classroom experience.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  Our systems are full of stupid self reenforcing opinions. It's somewhat amazing.
- walshemj 13y ago
  That is the case in a lot of country's the old 11 plus in the UK and the similar streaming into "technical" schools that Germany uses.
- Crito 13y ago
  "I was initially shut out of all the non-remedial math classes after that, and over the next couple of years I fought to get into the regular or accelerated classes." This is one thing that "gifted programs" in public schools are actually good for. At least while I was in public school, being declared to be "gifted" allowed you to take any accelerated course that you wanted, even if you did not even come close to meeting the academic requirements. This allowed me to, among other things, without any opposition transfer out of regular classes that had teachers that I did not get along with (10th grade (standard) english teacher and I had problems, so a third of the way through the year and after one failed quarter I had myself bumped into the honors english class so that I could have another teacher.) The system is wildly unfair to those who cannot take advantage of it, but I am fortunate that I could. It also bred in me a general disrespect for education, rules, and authority in general. If I could flaunt the system just because some doc once said I was clever, why would I respect that system?
- Blahah 13y ago
  As someone who did absolutely nothing at school except get in (sometimes very serious) trouble, I find this astonishing. I didn't even go to university for 4 years after school, I just got a menial job. Then when I'd figured out what I wanted, I did an undergrad at a non-prestigious university and am now doing PhD at Cambridge. Mistakes you make at 14 shouldn't have to follow you into adulthood, and I think the idea that people have to go straight to university from school is toxic.
- nmcfarl 13y ago
  I had a very different experience with a similar start: a D in eighth-grade math – and then was stuck being incredibly bored in remedial math in 9th - when choosing classes for 10th I lied, and changed my class roster at submission time. My altered roster was accepted, and I was back to "on track". Sometimes even very rulebound places aren't very good at catching people ignoring the rules.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  What the hell!? That's awful! I fucked myself over completely the first two years of high school, dropped out, homeschooled for two years, and then got into a state flagship university with honors by working hard at advanced subjects during the homeschooling. Bloody hell, I didn't realize the system could screw someone over that easily.
rayiner 13y ago
It really depends on what you want to do. Engineering is unusual in that grades matter less. That said, not a lot of B students at Stanford. They matter a lot in many other fields. Not much room for B students even at less elite med schools. If you want to be a VC, fastest way is still straight As at Harvard then a Stint at Goldman.

by jrs235 13y ago

nsxwolf 13y ago

Getting an F in the 9th grade had a somewhat different effect on me. I was initially shut out of all the non-remedial math classes after that, and over the next couple of years I fought to get into the regular or accelerated classes. The reaction was always along the lines of "Why? You've already blown it, you're not getting into a good college... just stay where you are, it will be easier for you". I did eventually get into the classes I wanted to, but they were right - I didn't get into a good college. It's interesting to have a system where you can be told you've ruined your life at 14.

jrs235 13y ago
That's an interesting point. My example was more like the article's dilemma... not being perfect. Your's involved an actual [F]ailure. What is a "good" college? I understand going to some colleges will give you a leg up in the "business" world. HNers and programmers tend to ride the meritocracy train and if one hops on board then the only thing that "should" matter in the eyes of HN peers is what you produce and your results. So don't get a standard job at a typical company working for the "man" where your resume has to make it through HR BS, instead start your own thing? I agree, a system where you can be told you've ruined your life at 14 is BS. I don't know the circumstances surrounding your F. Regardless, the fact that adults gave up and give up on a youth is somewhat revealing about the culture and beliefs they have... sad.
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  I bounced around from a (non-elite) state school, to community college, and finally ended up with a CS degree from a fairly mediocre accredited private university. I had a pretty bad attitude about education after my high school experiences, so I just fancied myself as some sort of autodidact that does things his own way without concern for the "system, man". I've done well for myself as an engineer, so I feel that I cam out of it all ok. But now that I have kids, I don't really want to pass on my bad attitudes onto them, so I guess I'm facing some of the issues this article discusses.
  - jrs235 13y ago
    I just remembered a book I came across in college. I highly recommend that everyone read it, but not until after they graduate high school (otherwise fewer people would care about graduating high school). It's called The Underachiever's Manifesto is very small 4 by 6 inches and only 96 pages. It's a very fast and enjoyable read. http://www.chroniclebooks.com/titles/the-underachiever-s-manifesto.html http://www.chroniclebooks.com/titles/the-underachiever-s-man... EDIT: Your comment reminded me of this book because I want my children to read it someday (but I don't want them to get the attitude too early)...
- nostrademons 13y ago
  FWIW, I got several Fs in middle school, went to an alternative high school with no grades, got into Amherst - where I failed two courses in my major, and eventually ended up at Google (there were 3 startups in the meantime). I think that if you want to do this successfully, you need to get really good at hacking expectations and doing end-routes around roadblocks. For me, I had the advantage of perfect scores on a bunch of my standardized tests, so I had this other credential that would make people sit up and take notice. My parents also advocated heavily for me, and I was not shy about befriending adults who I thought were more competent than my teachers and getting work/academic experience with them. I'd taken college courses at 3 different schools before applying to college (acing all of them, and in one case doubling the class average), and I'd worked for a tech startup and done good work for them, so I had plenty of people willing to write recommendations for me. The most important thing to realize if you're faced with a roadblock (and probably in life in general) is that different people are impressed by different things. You will never please everyone, but if there are some people who are impressed with you and willing to advocate for you, you can usually do an end-run around the people who think you will never amount to much. It's somewhat unfortunate that the public school system is packed with the sort of people who look at surface impressions only - think about what sort of people might be attracted to work at an institution where their own freedom to decide what to teach is itself set by bureaucrats sitting in the State House who have never gone near a classroom. It's doubly unfortunate that these are people in authority who have significant power over how our kids turn out. But the real world itself is much broader and more malleable than the classroom, and you can hack your way around a bad classroom experience.
maxerickson 13y ago
Our systems are full of stupid self reenforcing opinions. It's somewhat amazing.
walshemj 13y ago
That is the case in a lot of country's the old 11 plus in the UK and the similar streaming into "technical" schools that Germany uses.
Crito 13y ago
"I was initially shut out of all the non-remedial math classes after that, and over the next couple of years I fought to get into the regular or accelerated classes." This is one thing that "gifted programs" in public schools are actually good for. At least while I was in public school, being declared to be "gifted" allowed you to take any accelerated course that you wanted, even if you did not even come close to meeting the academic requirements. This allowed me to, among other things, without any opposition transfer out of regular classes that had teachers that I did not get along with (10th grade (standard) english teacher and I had problems, so a third of the way through the year and after one failed quarter I had myself bumped into the honors english class so that I could have another teacher.) The system is wildly unfair to those who cannot take advantage of it, but I am fortunate that I could. It also bred in me a general disrespect for education, rules, and authority in general. If I could flaunt the system just because some doc once said I was clever, why would I respect that system?
Blahah 13y ago
As someone who did absolutely nothing at school except get in (sometimes very serious) trouble, I find this astonishing. I didn't even go to university for 4 years after school, I just got a menial job. Then when I'd figured out what I wanted, I did an undergrad at a non-prestigious university and am now doing PhD at Cambridge. Mistakes you make at 14 shouldn't have to follow you into adulthood, and I think the idea that people have to go straight to university from school is toxic.
nmcfarl 13y ago
I had a very different experience with a similar start: a D in eighth-grade math – and then was stuck being incredibly bored in remedial math in 9th - when choosing classes for 10th I lied, and changed my class roster at submission time. My altered roster was accepted, and I was back to "on track". Sometimes even very rulebound places aren't very good at catching people ignoring the rules.
eli_gottlieb 13y ago
What the hell!? That's awful! I fucked myself over completely the first two years of high school, dropped out, homeschooled for two years, and then got into a state flagship university with honors by working hard at advanced subjects during the homeschooling. Bloody hell, I didn't realize the system could screw someone over that easily.

rayiner 13y ago

It really depends on what you want to do. Engineering is unusual in that grades matter less. That said, not a lot of B students at Stanford. They matter a lot in many other fields. Not much room for B students even at less elite med schools. If you want to be a VC, fastest way is still straight As at Harvard then a Stint at Goldman.