8 ms·

"Markdown is better. Microsoft Word is better." Stop comparing oranges to apples. And there's really no "objectively better", it's two different tools with two

"Markdown is better. Microsoft Word is better." Stop comparing oranges to apples. And there's really no "objectively better", it's two different tools with two different uses. Sure, LaTeX could be better, but it's been working on.

tinco 13y ago
I do what I want. Also, LaTeX is a system for creating documents, and Word is a system for creating documents. There's only four important differences: Word has a more modern architecture, Words compiler is integrated into its GUI, Word is closed source, Words source format is not human readable. Apples to Oranges? I can compare these Braeburns to those Fujis just fine thank you.
- Crito 13y ago
  If that is all you need and expect from a replacement for LaTeX, why aren't you just using LibreOffice?
  - tinco 13y ago
    It's not, I need the human readable source part, so I can track my work and cooperate in git :) I use LibreOffice for some stuff though.
    - Crito 13y ago
      Aren't modern word processor formats just zipped-up XML files? I suspect it should be a straight-forward matter to get at least LibreOffice and version control cooperating.
      - TylerE 13y ago
        You are technically correct, but not usefully so. The XML is pretty hairy. A VCS that handles XML semantically (e.g. tag-pair oriented, rather than line-oriented) might have some shot....but, basically, merges are more or less not going to work so it's not really version control, just backups.
    - davidgerard 13y ago
      Versioning of OpenOffice/LibreOffice documents using git: http://blog.riemann.cc/2013/04/23/versioning-of-openoffice-libreoffice-documents-using-git/ http://blog.riemann.cc/2013/04/23/versioning-of-openoffice-l...
      - blueblob 13y ago
        That is really cool, thanks for that.
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    If we're talking about LaTeX, Word, Markdown and LibreOffice - well, then LibreOffice is a contender for the worst usability, it's superficially similar to a mature product but it's a case of "the remaining 10% of goodness will take more work than the first 90%".
    - Crito 13y ago
      Usability depends on who is using it. I refuse to use LibreOffice because it is so bad, but I would sooner recommend LibreOffice to my father than LaTeX or Markdown.
- stusmall 13y ago
  I don't mean to be a jerk, but how much do you actually use/have used LaTex? They aren't even similar. They have very few similar use cases. One is a typesetting system the other is a word processor. Sure, documents come out the other end with both but the process and targets are very different. One allows you to quickly and easily make a quality document. One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you want. Java and C are both programming languages but it is still apples and oranges to compare them.
  - tinco 13y ago
    I'm by no means a LaTex expert. I've written a few papers and a bunch of reports, nothing published, just undergraduate stuff. I dropped out halfway through my graduate degree, so I'm not what you'd call an academic. But I've seen and read enough to know that you can do impressive things with LaTex. I have another question though, how much have you used Word? I have used it only a couple of times since highschool, but it's gotten pretty impressive. I bet that if you really dive into it you could get very close to the power of latex. At least, with regards to the typesetting. The drawing images/formulas/schemas thing is a whole different ballgame I'd agree. Anyway, my point was not that Microsoft Word in any way is a good replacement for LaTex, I'm just saying that if LaTex could be as well written as Word is, it could have these fancy GUI and fast rendering features too. There's people out there that think that the power in typesetting that LaTex has is mutual exclusive with the speed and usability that Word has. That just isn't so. The only reason LaTex isn't fast and more easily extensible is that it was written for the machines of 40 years ago, that didn't have enough RAM to hold the parsed tree of a document. LaTex could be ten times as fast, were it written in Ruby, the slowest language out there. Just because a modern programmer would make use of the modern hardware and modern design concepts, and just make it responsive. A GUI could be as simple external process that accessed a message passing API, rendering it to HTML and run it through Webkitview. Overhead everywhere, still ten times faster than LaTex... (edit: definitely worth a downvote, this comment :P)
    - x0x0 13y ago
      to summarize: you've written a handful of latex documents, so you're now an expert on what latex is used for and what people want out of it. would it help to point out that given latex is more difficult to use than word, I'd bet most latex users have tried and discarded word in favor of latex? Would that affect your judgements about the relative use cases? There's people out there that think that the power in typesetting that LaTex has is mutual exclusive with the speed and usability that Word has. That just isn't so. Since, well, nothing else offers similar typesetting plus mathematical notation / flexibility, your proof is... what exactly? If you built a better system, you'd find customers for it.
- terminus 13y ago
  Those are just the surface differences. The modes in which you use all of these are very different. Word: explicit WYSIWYG control over typesetting. LaTeX: semantic level control over typesetting. Additionally provides explicit low level typesetting commands. Markdown: given how basic (trivial even) Markdown is (http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax) I'm not sure why it's even in this list.
  - tinco 13y ago
    It's in the list because it's what I would use for my thesis, if I'd do one now :) It's basic, but it has the semantics for most stuff, and can easily be extended for more. I'd do all formula's/drawings in external tools. Word nowadays has semantic typesetting controls too, I think since they started that ribbon thing that it has become useable. If you stick to using their semantic things I think you can do a pretty good job of properly typesetting in Word.
    - jbranchaud 13y ago
      Writing a thesis using only markdown sounds extremely painful. Are you going to create all your figures elsewhere and then include them as images? How are you going to create your list of figures? And your table of contents? How are you going to create, maintain, and organize your list of references? I could go on.
      - ngoldbaum 13y ago
        > Are you going to create all your figures elsewhere and then include them as images? This is what most people do in physics and astronomy. You make the plot in some kind of plotting package and export it to a vector format. In astronomy, the journals only recently started accepting PDF figures in addition to EPS. In my experience doing all of my figures in LaTeX is significantly more painful than using a real plotting package like matplotlib.
        GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago

tinco 13y ago

I do what I want. Also, LaTeX is a system for creating documents, and Word is a system for creating documents. There's only four important differences: Word has a more modern architecture, Words compiler is integrated into its GUI, Word is closed source, Words source format is not human readable. Apples to Oranges? I can compare these Braeburns to those Fujis just fine thank you.

Crito 13y ago
If that is all you need and expect from a replacement for LaTeX, why aren't you just using LibreOffice?
- tinco 13y ago
  It's not, I need the human readable source part, so I can track my work and cooperate in git :) I use LibreOffice for some stuff though.
  - Crito 13y ago
    Aren't modern word processor formats just zipped-up XML files? I suspect it should be a straight-forward matter to get at least LibreOffice and version control cooperating.
    - TylerE 13y ago
      You are technically correct, but not usefully so. The XML is pretty hairy. A VCS that handles XML semantically (e.g. tag-pair oriented, rather than line-oriented) might have some shot....but, basically, merges are more or less not going to work so it's not really version control, just backups.
  - davidgerard 13y ago
    Versioning of OpenOffice/LibreOffice documents using git: http://blog.riemann.cc/2013/04/23/versioning-of-openoffice-libreoffice-documents-using-git/ http://blog.riemann.cc/2013/04/23/versioning-of-openoffice-l...
    - blueblob 13y ago
      That is really cool, thanks for that.
- PeterisP 13y ago
  If we're talking about LaTeX, Word, Markdown and LibreOffice - well, then LibreOffice is a contender for the worst usability, it's superficially similar to a mature product but it's a case of "the remaining 10% of goodness will take more work than the first 90%".
  - Crito 13y ago
    Usability depends on who is using it. I refuse to use LibreOffice because it is so bad, but I would sooner recommend LibreOffice to my father than LaTeX or Markdown.
stusmall 13y ago
I don't mean to be a jerk, but how much do you actually use/have used LaTex? They aren't even similar. They have very few similar use cases. One is a typesetting system the other is a word processor. Sure, documents come out the other end with both but the process and targets are very different. One allows you to quickly and easily make a quality document. One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you want. Java and C are both programming languages but it is still apples and oranges to compare them.
- tinco 13y ago
  I'm by no means a LaTex expert. I've written a few papers and a bunch of reports, nothing published, just undergraduate stuff. I dropped out halfway through my graduate degree, so I'm not what you'd call an academic. But I've seen and read enough to know that you can do impressive things with LaTex. I have another question though, how much have you used Word? I have used it only a couple of times since highschool, but it's gotten pretty impressive. I bet that if you really dive into it you could get very close to the power of latex. At least, with regards to the typesetting. The drawing images/formulas/schemas thing is a whole different ballgame I'd agree. Anyway, my point was not that Microsoft Word in any way is a good replacement for LaTex, I'm just saying that if LaTex could be as well written as Word is, it could have these fancy GUI and fast rendering features too. There's people out there that think that the power in typesetting that LaTex has is mutual exclusive with the speed and usability that Word has. That just isn't so. The only reason LaTex isn't fast and more easily extensible is that it was written for the machines of 40 years ago, that didn't have enough RAM to hold the parsed tree of a document. LaTex could be ten times as fast, were it written in Ruby, the slowest language out there. Just because a modern programmer would make use of the modern hardware and modern design concepts, and just make it responsive. A GUI could be as simple external process that accessed a message passing API, rendering it to HTML and run it through Webkitview. Overhead everywhere, still ten times faster than LaTex... (edit: definitely worth a downvote, this comment :P)
  - x0x0 13y ago
    to summarize: you've written a handful of latex documents, so you're now an expert on what latex is used for and what people want out of it. would it help to point out that given latex is more difficult to use than word, I'd bet most latex users have tried and discarded word in favor of latex? Would that affect your judgements about the relative use cases? There's people out there that think that the power in typesetting that LaTex has is mutual exclusive with the speed and usability that Word has. That just isn't so. Since, well, nothing else offers similar typesetting plus mathematical notation / flexibility, your proof is... what exactly? If you built a better system, you'd find customers for it.
terminus 13y ago
Those are just the surface differences. The modes in which you use all of these are very different. Word: explicit WYSIWYG control over typesetting. LaTeX: semantic level control over typesetting. Additionally provides explicit low level typesetting commands. Markdown: given how basic (trivial even) Markdown is (http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax) I'm not sure why it's even in this list.
- tinco 13y ago
  It's in the list because it's what I would use for my thesis, if I'd do one now :) It's basic, but it has the semantics for most stuff, and can easily be extended for more. I'd do all formula's/drawings in external tools. Word nowadays has semantic typesetting controls too, I think since they started that ribbon thing that it has become useable. If you stick to using their semantic things I think you can do a pretty good job of properly typesetting in Word.
  - jbranchaud 13y ago
    Writing a thesis using only markdown sounds extremely painful. Are you going to create all your figures elsewhere and then include them as images? How are you going to create your list of figures? And your table of contents? How are you going to create, maintain, and organize your list of references? I could go on.
    - ngoldbaum 13y ago
      > Are you going to create all your figures elsewhere and then include them as images? This is what most people do in physics and astronomy. You make the plot in some kind of plotting package and export it to a vector format. In astronomy, the journals only recently started accepting PDF figures in addition to EPS. In my experience doing all of my figures in LaTeX is significantly more painful than using a real plotting package like matplotlib.
      - GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago