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History is weird that way. I recommend listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History series on the Mongols[1] where he talks about how historians often justify uns

History is weird that way. I recommend listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History series on the Mongols[1] where he talks about how historians often justify unspeakable horrors because in hindsight there are a lot of benefits to modern civilization. He balances it out by saying that the benefits don't look so good if you have to ask the people who actually have to pay the bill. Millions of Chinese, Muslims, Russians and Hungarians who actually had to pay for the benefits of Genghis Khans conquest would probably not see it as a good trade off to endure literally the end of the world. He also talks about how sometime in the future, when the pain isn't as fresh as it is now, some historian will write a book about all the benefits of Hitlers regime, like they do for Caesar or Alexander(All butchers of similar caliber). But thats pretty much impossible currently because you need the historical distance from such hard topics. [1] http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive It's caller "Wrath of the Khans" and is essentially an audio book, find a couple of free evenings and listen to it if you can handle hours and hours of horror. There are also a bunch of old episodes(only recent episodes are free) on WW2 that are definitely worth the money. The most recent series is on WW1, it's still unfinished, and in fact after many hours it's barely one month into the war, you need an entire mini-audio book to set up the context for an audio book on WW1, thats insane. Fans of history will become addicted to this podcast. BE WARNED!

mcv 13y ago
The Mongols are an example where I don't see nearly as much upside. I admit I don't know much about their impact on China, but pre-Mongol Russia (Novgorod and Kiev) were quite democratic and free. The Mongols moved the seat of power to Moscow and installed authoritatian regimes, and Russia has always remained very autocratic ever since. But even without that, of course we shouldn't go about causing terrible evil hoping some good will come of it. The Holocaust and everything Hitler did will always be terrible. It was the response to this evil, and the memory of it, that hopefully keeps driving us towards good for a long time to come. These are the lessons of history that we need to learn: that it's everybody's duty to ensure that this kind of evil can never happen again.
- pavelludiq 13y ago
  The mongol conquest was almost certainly a net negative for humanity(Baghdad recovered only in the 20th century as just one example). But the standard argument is that suddenly you had chinese culture spread to the west somewhat. Not to mention after all the killing was over, trade was more free and safe for a while. If you had the Khans permission to travel in the empire, you didn't have to worry too much about a random tribe looting your caravan. Mongols were also very tolerant of other religions as long as you submitted to their rule. Marco Polo probably wouldn't have made it to china without that region being "passified". The same argument could be used in the case of Alexander or Caesar or Napoleon. You could also say that the conquista was a good thing for the American continents, but that would depend on who you ask. This is a fairly complex topic well beyond my knowledge as a fan of history, not to mention I touched on a subject thats very sensitive to a huge portion of the population of the world. Most of us have ancestors who were conquered and few of us view it as a good thing. In summary, humans did horrible things to each other, and we survived and endured, so now with the danger out of the way we can play these games, I don't wish to continue though. I've probably stepped on a few land mines with this comment already. The whole thread is a mine field. I wish everybody pleasant evenings with history books/podcasts.

mcv 13y ago

The Mongols are an example where I don't see nearly as much upside. I admit I don't know much about their impact on China, but pre-Mongol Russia (Novgorod and Kiev) were quite democratic and free. The Mongols moved the seat of power to Moscow and installed authoritatian regimes, and Russia has always remained very autocratic ever since. But even without that, of course we shouldn't go about causing terrible evil hoping some good will come of it. The Holocaust and everything Hitler did will always be terrible. It was the response to this evil, and the memory of it, that hopefully keeps driving us towards good for a long time to come. These are the lessons of history that we need to learn: that it's everybody's duty to ensure that this kind of evil can never happen again.

pavelludiq 13y ago
The mongol conquest was almost certainly a net negative for humanity(Baghdad recovered only in the 20th century as just one example). But the standard argument is that suddenly you had chinese culture spread to the west somewhat. Not to mention after all the killing was over, trade was more free and safe for a while. If you had the Khans permission to travel in the empire, you didn't have to worry too much about a random tribe looting your caravan. Mongols were also very tolerant of other religions as long as you submitted to their rule. Marco Polo probably wouldn't have made it to china without that region being "passified". The same argument could be used in the case of Alexander or Caesar or Napoleon. You could also say that the conquista was a good thing for the American continents, but that would depend on who you ask. This is a fairly complex topic well beyond my knowledge as a fan of history, not to mention I touched on a subject thats very sensitive to a huge portion of the population of the world. Most of us have ancestors who were conquered and few of us view it as a good thing. In summary, humans did horrible things to each other, and we survived and endured, so now with the danger out of the way we can play these games, I don't wish to continue though. I've probably stepped on a few land mines with this comment already. The whole thread is a mine field. I wish everybody pleasant evenings with history books/podcasts.