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Seattle 8 years. Sadly I have to agree wholeheartedly with this, because I've been unable to find much contrary evidence. The 'Freeze', which is deservedly famo

by benched 13y ago

Seattle 8 years. Sadly I have to agree wholeheartedly with this, because I've been unable to find much contrary evidence. The 'Freeze', which is deservedly famous, is very, very real, no matter how many people try to minimize its reality. Go ahead, come here - it's on display every second of every day in every cubic meter of the city. The only people who will make eye contact or speak a word to you are the homeless - I'm unable to decide whether this is because their livelihood depends on it, because they've transcended excessive self-involvement, or both. People are passive-passive, extremely unfriendly. It's like everyone is playing a private success-seeking game in their head, never really showing their cards, but presenting a cultivated image. Yes, of course in 8 years I have met some awesome people here and there (and I'm not saying the rest aren't awesome, but they aren't sharing). Yet there is also a persistent shallowness and aloofness even to a lot of my friendships that I can't seem to crack sometimes. And yes, very segregated. Scavenger hunt: find one black person on the Eastside. It might take you days. No idea what to blame for that, but it's true. I liked the snowboarding, and I liked working at MS for less than half the time I spent there, but I'm definitely looking into relocating at this point. (For reference, I'm from Boston, where I assert that people generally say what they mean or what's at the front of their mind, instead of what's faultlessly polite or strategically advantageous.)

overgryphon 13y ago
Perhaps if all of your friendships are shallow and aloof, a change of city wouldn't solve your problem? I love Seattle, and do not find people here passive or unfriendly.
- toomim 13y ago
  Some people (like you) don't see it, but that doesn't mean the phenomena doesn't exist. Why would you think it has a common name -- the seattle freeze -- if it was a problem isolated to these two individuals?
- benched 13y ago
  Well, there is that deep well of unjustified fear and hatred I've stored up in my heart. I wasn't going to mention it, because I was worried it might undermine my credibility.
namelezz 13y ago
Damn it! I am planning to move to SF, Seattle, or NYC. The OP's story and your story are too sad about SF and Seattle.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Your mileage may vary, but anecdotally I've lived in all three and NYC wins by a really wide margin. That said, Seattle is a lot more economical - salaries are a tad lower than SF or NYC but more than made up for by lower cost of living (though this is changing).
- nostrademons 13y ago
  I think the only way to find out if you'll be happy in a city is to move there for a while and see if you like it. Cultural affinity is very personal; you'll read all sorts of opinions from everyone on HN, but they won't tell you anything about whether you will like it. FWIW, I've lived in Boston and Silicon Valley and have a number of family in NYC. I can't stand NYC - it's too busy, no greenery (Central Park doesn't count, it's all man-made), and generally feels like I'm living in a concrete cinderblock. I really liked Boston, but the culture is just a little bit too conservative, and I didn't feel like there were any professional opportunities that didn't involve paying my dues for 30 years while the world moved on around me. Silicon Valley has a wonderful openness to new ideas and a nice "seize the day" mentality, but everybody seems just slightly insecure about how their next-door neighbor just sold a company for $100M, and there's a big unhealthy competitive dynamic behind the surface. SF (& Berkeley) is charming but also has a slightly ridiculous lack of self-awareness - there is a huge population here who really values their quality of life but doesn't realize that their actions are the cause of all the things they complain about. (Witness all the folks who love their iPhones and Uber but hate the techies who make them, who protest rent increases but won't allow new housing construction, who prevent the state from raising taxes and then wonder why California is in perpetual budget crisis, and who hate the Comcast monopoly but won't allow any new fiber lines to be laid.) On the whole I think Silicon Valley is probably the right place for me, but I still wish I could find a place with the openness to new ideas of Silicon Valley but without the competitiveness and greed.
redditmigrant 13y ago
I have lived in the bay area, south bay specifically, for 2 years now and I dont remember the last stranger who spoke to me beyond the general politeness. I meet people through a common activity, like playing a sport, tech meetups etc. but that is the same for Seattle. So what really is the freeze and how does it affect you? P.S. - I have lived in Seattle and would move back in a heartbeat if I had the same professional opportunities as I have here.
- benched 13y ago
  Whether it is possible to proactively mitigate a circumstance has no bearing on whether the circumstance exists. I met plenty of people through sports and work. The Freeze is a local, cultural ambient background of social norms. It's an impression that each person is, more than usual, in their own private world. It's a lack of friendliness. It's strangers never looking at you or saying 'hi' - and there are places in the world where it is normal to look at strangers and say hi when you pass them. People don't say much. When they do they don't emote much, and it tends toward mealy-mouthed politeness. I could theorize about potential factors - off the top of my head I'd guess it's partly due to an unusually high population of affluent introverts. By now, even second-generation affluent introverts (e.g. the grown children of the people who made Windows). It affects me as a constant general background of insularity and alienation. It's quite apart from the issue of whether I've made friends through activities - I've done that. Obviously, nobody is saying that no human being in Seattle ever associates with any other, ever. It also occurs to me that it's maybe a sort of social tragedy of the commons. There's nothing wrong with being a locksmith, but an entire society of locksmiths would probably run into problems. Likewise, it's not a sin to be introverted, but a party (or a city) where everyone is introverted is going to be missing something, and become very dependent on the presence of Guitar Hero or Settlers of Catan stations for fun.

by benched 13y ago

overgryphon 13y ago

Perhaps if all of your friendships are shallow and aloof, a change of city wouldn't solve your problem? I love Seattle, and do not find people here passive or unfriendly.

toomim 13y ago
Some people (like you) don't see it, but that doesn't mean the phenomena doesn't exist. Why would you think it has a common name -- the seattle freeze -- if it was a problem isolated to these two individuals?
benched 13y ago
Well, there is that deep well of unjustified fear and hatred I've stored up in my heart. I wasn't going to mention it, because I was worried it might undermine my credibility.

namelezz 13y ago

Damn it! I am planning to move to SF, Seattle, or NYC. The OP's story and your story are too sad about SF and Seattle.

potatolicious 13y ago
Your mileage may vary, but anecdotally I've lived in all three and NYC wins by a really wide margin. That said, Seattle is a lot more economical - salaries are a tad lower than SF or NYC but more than made up for by lower cost of living (though this is changing).
nostrademons 13y ago
I think the only way to find out if you'll be happy in a city is to move there for a while and see if you like it. Cultural affinity is very personal; you'll read all sorts of opinions from everyone on HN, but they won't tell you anything about whether you will like it. FWIW, I've lived in Boston and Silicon Valley and have a number of family in NYC. I can't stand NYC - it's too busy, no greenery (Central Park doesn't count, it's all man-made), and generally feels like I'm living in a concrete cinderblock. I really liked Boston, but the culture is just a little bit too conservative, and I didn't feel like there were any professional opportunities that didn't involve paying my dues for 30 years while the world moved on around me. Silicon Valley has a wonderful openness to new ideas and a nice "seize the day" mentality, but everybody seems just slightly insecure about how their next-door neighbor just sold a company for $100M, and there's a big unhealthy competitive dynamic behind the surface. SF (& Berkeley) is charming but also has a slightly ridiculous lack of self-awareness - there is a huge population here who really values their quality of life but doesn't realize that their actions are the cause of all the things they complain about. (Witness all the folks who love their iPhones and Uber but hate the techies who make them, who protest rent increases but won't allow new housing construction, who prevent the state from raising taxes and then wonder why California is in perpetual budget crisis, and who hate the Comcast monopoly but won't allow any new fiber lines to be laid.) On the whole I think Silicon Valley is probably the right place for me, but I still wish I could find a place with the openness to new ideas of Silicon Valley but without the competitiveness and greed.

redditmigrant 13y ago

I have lived in the bay area, south bay specifically, for 2 years now and I dont remember the last stranger who spoke to me beyond the general politeness. I meet people through a common activity, like playing a sport, tech meetups etc. but that is the same for Seattle. So what really is the freeze and how does it affect you? P.S. - I have lived in Seattle and would move back in a heartbeat if I had the same professional opportunities as I have here.

benched 13y ago
Whether it is possible to proactively mitigate a circumstance has no bearing on whether the circumstance exists. I met plenty of people through sports and work. The Freeze is a local, cultural ambient background of social norms. It's an impression that each person is, more than usual, in their own private world. It's a lack of friendliness. It's strangers never looking at you or saying 'hi' - and there are places in the world where it is normal to look at strangers and say hi when you pass them. People don't say much. When they do they don't emote much, and it tends toward mealy-mouthed politeness. I could theorize about potential factors - off the top of my head I'd guess it's partly due to an unusually high population of affluent introverts. By now, even second-generation affluent introverts (e.g. the grown children of the people who made Windows). It affects me as a constant general background of insularity and alienation. It's quite apart from the issue of whether I've made friends through activities - I've done that. Obviously, nobody is saying that no human being in Seattle ever associates with any other, ever. It also occurs to me that it's maybe a sort of social tragedy of the commons. There's nothing wrong with being a locksmith, but an entire society of locksmiths would probably run into problems. Likewise, it's not a sin to be introverted, but a party (or a city) where everyone is introverted is going to be missing something, and become very dependent on the presence of Guitar Hero or Settlers of Catan stations for fun.