5 ms·

Yes, Vancouver housing is incredibly overpriced. Perhaps more-so than the Bay Area because wages have kept up even less (supposedly due to Vancouver's desirabil

by kohanz 13y ago

Yes, Vancouver housing is incredibly overpriced. Perhaps more-so than the Bay Area because wages have kept up even less (supposedly due to Vancouver's desirability as a destination). That doesn't mean there aren't good, well-paying jobs there, but on average, wages in Vancouver are much lower than, say Toronto. As for the racism aspect, I think the choice of word is a bit hyperbolic. That being said, as a Canadian who has lived and worked in SV, I think there are major differences between the way visible minorities are integrated in Canadian and American society. California is probably one of the less jarring transitions for a Canadian (fairly liberal society), but even then, you can't help but notice. Note that I'm not saying it's better or worse (that is a matter of opinion), but that it's just very different.

bane 13y ago
As an American East Coaster, where we have longer social experience with massive immigration (and with our own share of racism and segregation), lots of CA seems like a throwback to an even more highly segregated and almost racist time period. It's not quite the Deep South, but it's definitely uncomfortable with minority groups that tend not to be involved in tech or finance. People lament the dying of ethnic enclaves like Chinatowns, but what it really means is that those ethnic groups are starting to integrate with the majority ethnic group.
cromwellian 13y ago
Can you give a particular example? I live in the South Bay/Santa Clara and my neighborhood is a diverse collection of Chinese, Indians, Arabs, Europeans immigrants, and African Americans. SV segregation in my area isn't primarily racial, but classist. Most if not all of the people in my neighborhood are white collar professionals -- engineers, lawyers, doctors. There are concentrated ethnic enclaves in the area like Cupertino, but these are primarily based on school district preferences.
- CurtHagenlocher 13y ago
  When there are elections in the Vancouver area, you see people of all backgrounds and colors running for office. The same is decidedly not true in the US. How many election posters have you seen where the candidate is wearing a turban, or has a name that's difficult to pronounce for "native" Americans?
  - cromwellian 13y ago
    I've seen plenty of Chinese, Vietnamese, and Indians on posters in the Bay Area. (US representative for my district is Mike Honda) I have not seen many Arabs or Sikhs, but that may be more a function of population percentage and profession, than racism towards these groups, which exploded mostly after 9/11. People who run for office are usually lawyers, and there is a definite ethnic divide in professions. Moreover, immigrants usually don't come to be lawyers, since being good at law requires a mastery of the language and the nuances of the local culture, and native born citizens have a natural advantage.
    - djs123sdj 13y ago
      I can understand why the confusion may arise due to both groups wearing fabric-based head garments, but most (though not all) Sikhs are of Indian origin. Their cultural connection is much stronger to South Asia than to the Arab world. Also, many Sikhs do not not wear turbans, so to you or anyone else, they would just appear to be "Indians".
      - cromwellian 13y ago
        I know the difference between Sikhs (religion) and Arabs (ethnicity), I only lumped them together because most Americans do not and the original poster mentioned "turbans", hence a number of violent attacks against Sikhs after 9/11 by rednecks who didn't understand the difference. Remember when the Hillary Clinton campaign released a photo of Barack Obama wearing a (Somalian) turban? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/barackobama.uselections2008 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/barackobama.use...
        djs123sdj 13y ago
        OK, I believe that you understand the difference, it just didn't seem that way in your original post. I didn't remember that photo from the 08 election (or even see it in the first place). It makes the skull duggery of House of Cards seem every so slightly less fictional!
- kohanz 13y ago
  One thing that stood out to me was that the minimum wage type work was almost exclusively staffed by one particular ethnic minority.
cgh 13y ago
Greater Vancouver is at least as racially segmented as SF, perhaps more so. The major difference is the ethnic enclaves here aren't poor so it's not as disturbing. For example, Richmond is the largest Chinese city in the world outside of China. It's a relatively affluent place. As far as housing goes, Vancouver's is among the most unaffordable in the world, along with the likes of Hong Kong (as measured by price to rent and price to income). So yes, it is indeed worse than SF. Maybe Bray isn't up on the latest from Vancouver or something.
- jarek 13y ago
  > Maybe Bray isn't up on the latest from Vancouver or something. He bought in >15 years ago so he's not too concerned about real estate purchase prices. (Plus those "80% of income" metrics are not very useful anyway, certainly not for comparing moving from city to city while keeping the same job - doubly so if you've bought in when prices were a third of what they're now.)
typicalrunt 13y ago
To put a data point on it, Royal Bank of Canada (RBC) put out a study in Nov 2013 that rated the affordability of housing in Canadian major cities. For Vancouver, it takes 84-88% of your pre-tax income to afford a detached house (page 7 of the report). "Afford" means mortgage (principal+interest), property taxes, utilities, etc. Okay, so 88% is high right? Well "pre-tax" means before the government gets their cut. In Canada, a high income earner gets taxed roughly 40% of their income and we all pay our mortgages/rent/utilities with post-tax money, so the affordability figure goes up over 100%. That means your entire paycheque is going towards paying for detached housing [2]. IIRC, in the US, you are allowed to deduct your mortgage interest from your income, meaning you get to pay with pre-tax income. But in Canada that is not allowed and you must pay the piper first. [1] http://www.rbc.com/newsroom/pdf/HA-1127-2013.pdf http://www.rbc.com/newsroom/pdf/HA-1127-2013.pdf [2] Condos are at 42% affordability in Vancouver, which is still disastrously high since it is also using pre-tax income. edit: 42% for condos, not 47%. edit 2: corrected to say mortgage interest is deductible from income, based on reply. Thx!
- zrail 13y ago
  Small correction: in the US you can deduct mortgage interest. At the beginning of a mortgage, and probably for most people the entirety of their time in any given house, that will be the majority of your payment.

by kohanz 13y ago

bane 13y ago

As an American East Coaster, where we have longer social experience with massive immigration (and with our own share of racism and segregation), lots of CA seems like a throwback to an even more highly segregated and almost racist time period. It's not quite the Deep South, but it's definitely uncomfortable with minority groups that tend not to be involved in tech or finance. People lament the dying of ethnic enclaves like Chinatowns, but what it really means is that those ethnic groups are starting to integrate with the majority ethnic group.

cromwellian 13y ago

Can you give a particular example? I live in the South Bay/Santa Clara and my neighborhood is a diverse collection of Chinese, Indians, Arabs, Europeans immigrants, and African Americans. SV segregation in my area isn't primarily racial, but classist. Most if not all of the people in my neighborhood are white collar professionals -- engineers, lawyers, doctors. There are concentrated ethnic enclaves in the area like Cupertino, but these are primarily based on school district preferences.

CurtHagenlocher 13y ago
When there are elections in the Vancouver area, you see people of all backgrounds and colors running for office. The same is decidedly not true in the US. How many election posters have you seen where the candidate is wearing a turban, or has a name that's difficult to pronounce for "native" Americans?
- cromwellian 13y ago
  I've seen plenty of Chinese, Vietnamese, and Indians on posters in the Bay Area. (US representative for my district is Mike Honda) I have not seen many Arabs or Sikhs, but that may be more a function of population percentage and profession, than racism towards these groups, which exploded mostly after 9/11. People who run for office are usually lawyers, and there is a definite ethnic divide in professions. Moreover, immigrants usually don't come to be lawyers, since being good at law requires a mastery of the language and the nuances of the local culture, and native born citizens have a natural advantage.
  - djs123sdj 13y ago
    I can understand why the confusion may arise due to both groups wearing fabric-based head garments, but most (though not all) Sikhs are of Indian origin. Their cultural connection is much stronger to South Asia than to the Arab world. Also, many Sikhs do not not wear turbans, so to you or anyone else, they would just appear to be "Indians".
    - cromwellian 13y ago
      I know the difference between Sikhs (religion) and Arabs (ethnicity), I only lumped them together because most Americans do not and the original poster mentioned "turbans", hence a number of violent attacks against Sikhs after 9/11 by rednecks who didn't understand the difference. Remember when the Hillary Clinton campaign released a photo of Barack Obama wearing a (Somalian) turban? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/barackobama.uselections2008 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/barackobama.use...
      - djs123sdj 13y ago
        OK, I believe that you understand the difference, it just didn't seem that way in your original post. I didn't remember that photo from the 08 election (or even see it in the first place). It makes the skull duggery of House of Cards seem every so slightly less fictional!
kohanz 13y ago
One thing that stood out to me was that the minimum wage type work was almost exclusively staffed by one particular ethnic minority.

cgh 13y ago

Greater Vancouver is at least as racially segmented as SF, perhaps more so. The major difference is the ethnic enclaves here aren't poor so it's not as disturbing. For example, Richmond is the largest Chinese city in the world outside of China. It's a relatively affluent place. As far as housing goes, Vancouver's is among the most unaffordable in the world, along with the likes of Hong Kong (as measured by price to rent and price to income). So yes, it is indeed worse than SF. Maybe Bray isn't up on the latest from Vancouver or something.

jarek 13y ago
> Maybe Bray isn't up on the latest from Vancouver or something. He bought in >15 years ago so he's not too concerned about real estate purchase prices. (Plus those "80% of income" metrics are not very useful anyway, certainly not for comparing moving from city to city while keeping the same job - doubly so if you've bought in when prices were a third of what they're now.)

typicalrunt 13y ago

To put a data point on it, Royal Bank of Canada (RBC) put out a study in Nov 2013 that rated the affordability of housing in Canadian major cities. For Vancouver, it takes 84-88% of your pre-tax income to afford a detached house (page 7 of the report). "Afford" means mortgage (principal+interest), property taxes, utilities, etc. Okay, so 88% is high right? Well "pre-tax" means before the government gets their cut. In Canada, a high income earner gets taxed roughly 40% of their income and we all pay our mortgages/rent/utilities with post-tax money, so the affordability figure goes up over 100%. That means your entire paycheque is going towards paying for detached housing [2]. IIRC, in the US, you are allowed to deduct your mortgage interest from your income, meaning you get to pay with pre-tax income. But in Canada that is not allowed and you must pay the piper first. [1] http://www.rbc.com/newsroom/pdf/HA-1127-2013.pdf http://www.rbc.com/newsroom/pdf/HA-1127-2013.pdf [2] Condos are at 42% affordability in Vancouver, which is still disastrously high since it is also using pre-tax income. edit: 42% for condos, not 47%. edit 2: corrected to say mortgage interest is deductible from income, based on reply. Thx!

zrail 13y ago
Small correction: in the US you can deduct mortgage interest. At the beginning of a mortgage, and probably for most people the entirety of their time in any given house, that will be the majority of your payment.