4 ms·

because Benched was saying that these things sound like meaningless platitudes, then you essentially say "Of course they aren't platitudes, that is obvious!"

by lsc 13y ago

because Benched was saying that these things sound like meaningless platitudes, then you essentially say "Of course they aren't platitudes, that is obvious!" when it isn't obvious at all to me. Then you seem to imply that anyone who doesn't find these things obvious is emotionally unskilled, whatever that means. If you took a stab at explaining what those things actually mean, I'd have upvoted. That would make for an interesting conversation, even if I didn't agree with you. As it stands, though, your post reads like a content-free insult, which is exactly the sort of thing that ought to be downvoted.

hosh 13y ago
@lsc So an insult is something that happens when someone takes one action, and the other person feels offended by it. You, @lsc, cannot know whether @benched feels offended by it through just looking at the text. Rather, it is more impeccable to say that you felt offended by my words to @benched. I appreciate your efforts though. Next time, just ask for clarification rather than hitting the downvote button. I don't mind that you downvoted it; but without explaining your action like that, you are doing just the same as I am: failing to communicate. To address your questions. When you say "platitude", that means that those are words empty of power. That is for example, someone says: "Don't dwell, release!" Now, if you have never, ever experienced how to release emotions, you are also unlikely to know how your mind and awareness dwells upon those emotions. Because you have never directly experienced how to do it, in your mind, it is impossible to do. So when someone says to you, "Don't dwell, release!" there is no frame of reference to even understand what that means. To you, they are meaningless platitudes -- regardless of whether the person speaking to you has those skills or not. But for folks who have experienced this, it is obvious. It is obvious because the word obvious stems from the same word as "observable". (It is interesting you took the word "obvious" and filtered it to apply your emotional response to it, probably something along the lines of, "you are stupid because you cannot even perceive this"; for me, the intent and emotional content at the time I wrote this was more along the lines of, "yes, it can be this easy too, you should try it, don't think too much about it"). Most people are emotional morons. That is not an insult. That is exactly what most people are: confused and unskilled with emotions. If anything, it is a cause for compassion, not a means by which someone can feel better about themselves by being "better" than someone else. It also does not mean someone will stay like that forever. Like all skills, you can develop this, though it takes effort. Most people avoid painful emotions. Part of their subconscious dwells on there. It stays there because they do not want to surface it to the consciousness allow themselves to really experience that feeling, and allow it to fade on its own once it surfaces. Feeling insulted or offended, or feeling offended on behalf of someone else are examples of this dynamic in play. Usually, if something like that surfaces, and the person tries to shunt off the suffering onto someone else as quickly as possible. One typical and popular method of shunting off suffering is a process called "blame". Our justice system, in fact, is not really about justice so much as divying up blame, that is, divying up suffering among the people. That kind of stuff persists, as each person passes blame on to the next person. It may also take the form of abuse and assault. It may also take the form of more subtle things -- little revenge, or rationalizations. Sometimes, the person isn't fully aware of it, since the misery is so intense, it blocks out whatever it is that is surfacing. Even more subtly is when those emotions shapes and changes your thought pattern, and you think you are being reasonable. But you're not. Anytime someone has those hidden agendas, they speak or act in one way while trying to get at something else, this dynamic is at play. Usually, when I teach someone these skills, we'd work on what is being experienced right now. If this were a real-time conversation in meatspace, we would be talking about the emotional impulses within you that led to the downvote. It would be easier in meatspace, since I would be able to tell when things start getting sidetracked, like turning this into a drama about @hosh vs. @lsc rather than what is arising right now. Since this is not meatspace, by the time you read this comment, the arising feelings would likely be different. If you're truly impeccable about that bit about wanting a serious conversation about this, PM me privately. Indirect means of contact are in my profile. Alternatively, send me your contact info and we can go from there.
- lsc 13y ago
  A downvote is not a punch in the face. It's not an act of violence. It's not even an insult. It doesn't materially harm you. A downvote is "I don't think this comment is contributing to the conversation" - I think downvoting the comment I downvoted was completely appropriate. This doesn't mean that I think the site would be better off without you; this just means that I thought the site would have been better without that particular comment. I'm not going to downvote /this/ comment, because I think it's contributing something. It's... too large and complex for me to properly digest and respond to right now, but I think there is something there... you are attempting to convey something to me... which is going to be quite difficult, because we have very different ways of relating to emotions, and because we have very different jargon, and even when we mostly agree on a word (like your example of 'obviously') the emotional connotations associated with that word are quite different. I suspect that we even have a different way of relating to the emotional connotations of a word, and separating those from the thing actually being described. But, if this was your response the other night, when I had more time, I likely would have put significant effort into responding instead of just downvoting.
  - hosh 13y ago
    My point is that I doubt you actually examined the emotion that arose where you felt you needed to downvote it at all. It does not matter if it is not a punch in the face, act of violence or an insult. You could have not downvoted and simply let it go. Why didn't you? Your reasoning is that you are helping contribute to the site, and it is nothing personal. That's fine, and perhaps admirable. So why do you feel that this is helping the community? Where does the need to help the community arise from? Where is it located in your body? These are experiential. I think you are right that we have different ways of relating to the emotional connotation of the word. There is a particular skill at play here. Hmm. I'm not sure how to describe it without jargon. In order to understand a word, you experience the meaning. That experience tends to be an aggregation of a lot of things: patterns of sensations within the body, which tends to be interpreted as plays of emotions, which give rise to a narrative... a reason. Since this experience plays out at the sensory level, you can observe this on other people. Some people see things. Some people hear things. Some people get things. (There is mismatch when say, you hear an exchange like, "Do you see? It's crystal clear." "No, you don't get it. You don't grasp the significance.") The other thing is that we tend to think awareness is the same as experience. It's not. It is possible to simply have awareness without content. There are also examples where someone's body might experience something, but the person is not aware of it, often because there is armoring or aversion. Further, there are people who tend to associate thought with consciousness and awareness. Typically (but not always), such a person do not have enough awareness of the emotions at play. I speak of these things because I've been like that before, so I know what it is like to be emotionally clueless and what it is like to be much more in tune with the play of emotions. If most of your awareness rests in your intellect, and you feel comfortable using your intellect, you're not as likely to be aware of the underlying emotional or sensory experiences. So if you attempted to use "positive thinking", you could make a change in the pattern of thought. But that does not necessarily make a change in the pattern of emotion. The Litany Against Fear from Dune is a great example. That never worked for me :-D But I know folks where it does work for them. There is enough awareness and presence with the emotional that, when they speak "I will let fear pass me by..." it really does pass them by. The experience the fear arising in their body ... and leaving. (And that is actually how you release. You allow it to go on its own). It never worked for me because I was simply pushing symbols around in my mind, yet since my awareness was not on the fear, there is no connection between my intent/will with the emotion. For me, I have to direct my intent/will to tune into the fear, recognize it, and watch it, and allow it to pass out of my system on its own. Simply speaking the concepts are powerless platitudes for me without the presence of my mind in my emotions. Does that help?

by lsc 13y ago

hosh 13y ago

@lsc So an insult is something that happens when someone takes one action, and the other person feels offended by it. You, @lsc, cannot know whether @benched feels offended by it through just looking at the text. Rather, it is more impeccable to say that you felt offended by my words to @benched. I appreciate your efforts though. Next time, just ask for clarification rather than hitting the downvote button. I don't mind that you downvoted it; but without explaining your action like that, you are doing just the same as I am: failing to communicate. To address your questions. When you say "platitude", that means that those are words empty of power. That is for example, someone says: "Don't dwell, release!" Now, if you have never, ever experienced how to release emotions, you are also unlikely to know how your mind and awareness dwells upon those emotions. Because you have never directly experienced how to do it, in your mind, it is impossible to do. So when someone says to you, "Don't dwell, release!" there is no frame of reference to even understand what that means. To you, they are meaningless platitudes -- regardless of whether the person speaking to you has those skills or not. But for folks who have experienced this, it is obvious. It is obvious because the word obvious stems from the same word as "observable". (It is interesting you took the word "obvious" and filtered it to apply your emotional response to it, probably something along the lines of, "you are stupid because you cannot even perceive this"; for me, the intent and emotional content at the time I wrote this was more along the lines of, "yes, it can be this easy too, you should try it, don't think too much about it"). Most people are emotional morons. That is not an insult. That is exactly what most people are: confused and unskilled with emotions. If anything, it is a cause for compassion, not a means by which someone can feel better about themselves by being "better" than someone else. It also does not mean someone will stay like that forever. Like all skills, you can develop this, though it takes effort. Most people avoid painful emotions. Part of their subconscious dwells on there. It stays there because they do not want to surface it to the consciousness allow themselves to really experience that feeling, and allow it to fade on its own once it surfaces. Feeling insulted or offended, or feeling offended on behalf of someone else are examples of this dynamic in play. Usually, if something like that surfaces, and the person tries to shunt off the suffering onto someone else as quickly as possible. One typical and popular method of shunting off suffering is a process called "blame". Our justice system, in fact, is not really about justice so much as divying up blame, that is, divying up suffering among the people. That kind of stuff persists, as each person passes blame on to the next person. It may also take the form of abuse and assault. It may also take the form of more subtle things -- little revenge, or rationalizations. Sometimes, the person isn't fully aware of it, since the misery is so intense, it blocks out whatever it is that is surfacing. Even more subtly is when those emotions shapes and changes your thought pattern, and you think you are being reasonable. But you're not. Anytime someone has those hidden agendas, they speak or act in one way while trying to get at something else, this dynamic is at play. Usually, when I teach someone these skills, we'd work on what is being experienced right now. If this were a real-time conversation in meatspace, we would be talking about the emotional impulses within you that led to the downvote. It would be easier in meatspace, since I would be able to tell when things start getting sidetracked, like turning this into a drama about @hosh vs. @lsc rather than what is arising right now. Since this is not meatspace, by the time you read this comment, the arising feelings would likely be different. If you're truly impeccable about that bit about wanting a serious conversation about this, PM me privately. Indirect means of contact are in my profile. Alternatively, send me your contact info and we can go from there.

lsc 13y ago
A downvote is not a punch in the face. It's not an act of violence. It's not even an insult. It doesn't materially harm you. A downvote is "I don't think this comment is contributing to the conversation" - I think downvoting the comment I downvoted was completely appropriate. This doesn't mean that I think the site would be better off without you; this just means that I thought the site would have been better without that particular comment. I'm not going to downvote /this/ comment, because I think it's contributing something. It's... too large and complex for me to properly digest and respond to right now, but I think there is something there... you are attempting to convey something to me... which is going to be quite difficult, because we have very different ways of relating to emotions, and because we have very different jargon, and even when we mostly agree on a word (like your example of 'obviously') the emotional connotations associated with that word are quite different. I suspect that we even have a different way of relating to the emotional connotations of a word, and separating those from the thing actually being described. But, if this was your response the other night, when I had more time, I likely would have put significant effort into responding instead of just downvoting.
- hosh 13y ago
  My point is that I doubt you actually examined the emotion that arose where you felt you needed to downvote it at all. It does not matter if it is not a punch in the face, act of violence or an insult. You could have not downvoted and simply let it go. Why didn't you? Your reasoning is that you are helping contribute to the site, and it is nothing personal. That's fine, and perhaps admirable. So why do you feel that this is helping the community? Where does the need to help the community arise from? Where is it located in your body? These are experiential. I think you are right that we have different ways of relating to the emotional connotation of the word. There is a particular skill at play here. Hmm. I'm not sure how to describe it without jargon. In order to understand a word, you experience the meaning. That experience tends to be an aggregation of a lot of things: patterns of sensations within the body, which tends to be interpreted as plays of emotions, which give rise to a narrative... a reason. Since this experience plays out at the sensory level, you can observe this on other people. Some people see things. Some people hear things. Some people get things. (There is mismatch when say, you hear an exchange like, "Do you see? It's crystal clear." "No, you don't get it. You don't grasp the significance.") The other thing is that we tend to think awareness is the same as experience. It's not. It is possible to simply have awareness without content. There are also examples where someone's body might experience something, but the person is not aware of it, often because there is armoring or aversion. Further, there are people who tend to associate thought with consciousness and awareness. Typically (but not always), such a person do not have enough awareness of the emotions at play. I speak of these things because I've been like that before, so I know what it is like to be emotionally clueless and what it is like to be much more in tune with the play of emotions. If most of your awareness rests in your intellect, and you feel comfortable using your intellect, you're not as likely to be aware of the underlying emotional or sensory experiences. So if you attempted to use "positive thinking", you could make a change in the pattern of thought. But that does not necessarily make a change in the pattern of emotion. The Litany Against Fear from Dune is a great example. That never worked for me :-D But I know folks where it does work for them. There is enough awareness and presence with the emotional that, when they speak "I will let fear pass me by..." it really does pass them by. The experience the fear arising in their body ... and leaving. (And that is actually how you release. You allow it to go on its own). It never worked for me because I was simply pushing symbols around in my mind, yet since my awareness was not on the fear, there is no connection between my intent/will with the emotion. For me, I have to direct my intent/will to tune into the fear, recognize it, and watch it, and allow it to pass out of my system on its own. Simply speaking the concepts are powerless platitudes for me without the presence of my mind in my emotions. Does that help?