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It was no peaceful protest since main state square's squatting. Illegal squatting of public properties is prohibited in US/EU, in UA too, I guess.

by kushti 13y ago

iamwithnail 13y ago
Illegal does not mean violent.
- kushti 13y ago
  Illegal means "should be stopped by legal power. AFAIK there's no doubts in previous elections results, so Yanukovich is legal power and had to stop illegal squatting(feel the difference with Russia/arabic countries where were serious doubts whether power is legl or not).
  - 6d0debc071 13y ago
    > Illegal means "should be stopped by legal power." It means that perhaps it will be. I think beyond that you'll find there are varying opinions on whether it's a moral imperative to enforce the law all the time, or whether there should be a degree of discretion exercised in doing so.
  - john_b 13y ago
    You are conflating "illegal" with "immoral", which is perhaps the most dangerous and most common political fallacy today. Laws can be changed, sometimes arbitrarily or to serve corrupt interests. If your morality changes with the laws your politicians impose upon you then you are little more than a serf.
guard-of-terra 13y ago
What Gandhi did was both peaceful and illegal. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
- kushti 13y ago
  Thanks ukrainian laws, there is no need in Gandhi-way resistance. Opposition have ability to make referendum by collecting 3,000,000 signatures(not that much, Yanukovich had 11,000,000 during last elections). But that's no way for ukrainian opposition unfortunately. The way of UA opposition is illegal squatting of main square of the whole state and clashing with the police. The sad thing irrational and aggressive thinking being widely supported by media and internet users.
  - Tloewald 13y ago
    Civil disobedience is all about breaking the law without hurting people. In general it only takes place when large numbers of people have a problem with the law itself. If the state enforces the law by hurting people then public opinion will swing in favor of the people who are being hurt. This is the whole point. Arguing that the opposition was not peaceful because they broke the law without hurting people is obviously wrong and misses the point. It happens in the US too. An 84 year old nun was just sentenced to 3y in prison yesterday in Tennessee for taking part in a peaceful protect against the US nuclear weapon program. Being put in prison isn't as dramatic as being shot by snipers, but it does represent harm and it does affect public opinion (to what extent, who knows).
  - iamwithnail 13y ago
    You mean the 12m votes he got in the election that was deemed to be unfair by international observers? I'm not surprised people have no faith that the recall process will work. http://helsinki.org.ua/index.php?r=3.4.2.4 http://helsinki.org.ua/index.php?r=3.4.2.4

It was no peaceful protest since main state square's squatting. Illegal squatting of public properties is prohibited in US/EU, in UA too, I guess.

by kushti 13y ago

It was no peaceful protest since main state square's squatting. Illegal squatting of public properties is prohibited in US/EU, in UA too, I guess.

iamwithnail 13y ago

Illegal does not mean violent.

kushti 13y ago
Illegal means "should be stopped by legal power. AFAIK there's no doubts in previous elections results, so Yanukovich is legal power and had to stop illegal squatting(feel the difference with Russia/arabic countries where were serious doubts whether power is legl or not).
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  > Illegal means "should be stopped by legal power." It means that perhaps it will be. I think beyond that you'll find there are varying opinions on whether it's a moral imperative to enforce the law all the time, or whether there should be a degree of discretion exercised in doing so.
- john_b 13y ago
  You are conflating "illegal" with "immoral", which is perhaps the most dangerous and most common political fallacy today. Laws can be changed, sometimes arbitrarily or to serve corrupt interests. If your morality changes with the laws your politicians impose upon you then you are little more than a serf.

guard-of-terra 13y ago

What Gandhi did was both peaceful and illegal. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

kushti 13y ago
Thanks ukrainian laws, there is no need in Gandhi-way resistance. Opposition have ability to make referendum by collecting 3,000,000 signatures(not that much, Yanukovich had 11,000,000 during last elections). But that's no way for ukrainian opposition unfortunately. The way of UA opposition is illegal squatting of main square of the whole state and clashing with the police. The sad thing irrational and aggressive thinking being widely supported by media and internet users.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  Civil disobedience is all about breaking the law without hurting people. In general it only takes place when large numbers of people have a problem with the law itself. If the state enforces the law by hurting people then public opinion will swing in favor of the people who are being hurt. This is the whole point. Arguing that the opposition was not peaceful because they broke the law without hurting people is obviously wrong and misses the point. It happens in the US too. An 84 year old nun was just sentenced to 3y in prison yesterday in Tennessee for taking part in a peaceful protect against the US nuclear weapon program. Being put in prison isn't as dramatic as being shot by snipers, but it does represent harm and it does affect public opinion (to what extent, who knows).
- iamwithnail 13y ago
  You mean the 12m votes he got in the election that was deemed to be unfair by international observers? I'm not surprised people have no faith that the recall process will work. http://helsinki.org.ua/index.php?r=3.4.2.4 http://helsinki.org.ua/index.php?r=3.4.2.4