5 ms·

"It looks compulsive, and subtly fear-driven. In conversation, it's a non-stop, predictable and inescapable barrage of "Yeah, but", "Well, on the bright side",

by hosh 13y ago

"It looks compulsive, and subtly fear-driven. In conversation, it's a non-stop, predictable and inescapable barrage of "Yeah, but", "Well, on the bright side", "Hey, at least" - and no matter what I say, they won't stop returning like it's tennis and they're scrambling all over the court to stop the ball going out of bounds by any means." Yeah. Those people suck at it. You are absolutely correct that, use of "Yeah, but" and "Well on the bright side" "Hey, at least" generally indicates trying to gold-plate pig shit. As I have mentioned in other comments, "positive thinking" is a misnomer. You're really working with emotions, not thought. Thoughts arise from emotions. "Positive thinking" is not so much as using your language to try to gold-plat pig shit so much as tuning into the underlying emotions, and perhaps, shifting the emotions to a different shape. When that happens, the thoughts will arise in a different pattern. "I'm biased, but I don't see myself as overly negative." <-- A lot of negative people wading through their crap don't see themselves as negative. I speak from personal experience. I can say this kind of stuff now, only because I was able to tune into the darker emotions and learned how to release them. There are lots and lots of methods to do this, much literature, teachings, and trainings on this. The darker emotions stay within you and color how you experience the world; unless you've had a lot of training and practice at being aware of yourself, it is unlikely that you would even know how much crap you carry, though it would feel as if you were being neutral. (It isn't that you are neutral; it is that it feels normal to you). Perhaps, be open to the possibility that there are people who don't suck at this stuff. Observe what they do, the play of emotions running through them, and how they affect people around them. There are folks like that out there.

lsc 13y ago
>I was able to tune into the darker emotions and learned how to release them. There are lots and lots of methods to do this, much literature, teachings, and trainings on this. The darker emotions stay within you and color how you experience the world; unless you've had a lot of training and practice at being aware of yourself, it is unlikely that you would even know how much crap you carry, though it would feel as if you were being neutral. (It isn't that you are neutral; it is that it feels normal to you). I think it's pretty unbalanced to not have any darker emotions. I mean, certainly, one can take it too far, but I find this social pressure to be always happy to be... very fake, and very irritating.
- redblacktree 13y ago
  It's not about not having those emotions. It's about releasing them rather than dwelling on them. I think what you're describing is avoiding negative emotions, which actually makes things worse. You have to feel through them, if that makes any sense to you at all.
  - benched 13y ago
    No offense intended, but this makes me think of how many times I've heard people speaking about 'working' with emotions. It always makes me raise an eyebrow. Examples: "Don't dwell. Release! Don't avoid... Own! Don't absorb. Transmute! Don't feed. Nurture!" I hope the idea is apparent.
    - hosh 13y ago
      Um. No, your eyebrow-raising idea is not apparent. Of course you don't dwell, you release. Of course you transmute, not absorb. Of course you nurture, not feed. All of those are emotional skills. Why do you feel so surprised about this?
      - hosh 13y ago
        All right. Would the person who downvoted the above want to explain the downvote? I was asking @benched why the person is surprised. What is obvious to @benched is not obvious to me; what is obvious to me is not obvious to @benched. What's the point of the upvote or downvote? Why did you feel the need to take the time to read all the way here and then downvote that comment?
        lsc 13y ago
        because Benched was saying that these things sound like meaningless platitudes, then you essentially say "Of course they aren't platitudes, that is obvious!" when it isn't obvious at all to me. Then you seem to imply that anyone who doesn't find these things obvious is emotionally unskilled, whatever that means. If you took a stab at explaining what those things actually mean, I'd have upvoted. That would make for an interesting conversation, even if I didn't agree with you. As it stands, though, your post reads like a content-free insult, which is exactly the sort of thing that ought to be downvoted.
saraid216 13y ago
I have to ask, because the lack of jargon makes it harder for me to register heuristic labels. Are you talking about being a darkworker? Or is that too far afield?
- jaredsohn 13y ago
  I don't think that's the right jargon. Darkworkers/lightworkers are more about serving yourself vs. the greater good. (i.e. making money via phishing is more darkworker while building Watsi is more lightworker.)
  - saraid216 13y ago
    Eh. The way I heard it discussed, that was exactly the kind of simplistic misconception that made people think darkworking was terribad. The way hosh talks about tuning into your "darker emotions" and "releasing them" reminds me of those conversations.
- hosh 13y ago
  @saraid216 No, that's not too far afield, though if you want to get into the details, I'd rather discuss this privately. Indirect contact methods are in my profile. I have never heard someone use the term "darkworker" until you brought it up, but it makes sense if people are going to talk about "lightworker". I have met and know a lot of folks who polarize things like that; many of them have great wisdom and I respect it, yet at the same time, I have learned not to bring up things like deliberately stalking your shadow. It freaks them out too much. I'll try to describe this in a way that is OK for a public forum (and as I said, feel free to contact me privately). If you ever had the experience of unity consciousness, that is the base. A lot of "lightworkers" have experienced that. However, I don't think they ever went through the implications of what that experience means. For them, there is some notion of "alignment with source" or something similar. Lots of wisdom comes out from it. However, if you have attained in the insight of oneness ... then how can anything, no matter how dark, terrifying, or evil be not an emanation of source? There are significant teachings and methods where, after attaining the insight of oneness, you have a basic connection of true nature; and as such, you can also recognize true nature in any and all phenomena. It is in this way that transmutation can happen. You stalk the shadows in order to bring light there, to see the truth for yourself and to see the truth within the dark. It is also risky, since, this kind of practice easily attracts people who have a fixation on darkness (for a variety of reasons). Or, if you have any shred of arrogance, or messiah complex, or trying to be the hero, all of that comes out when you stalk the shadows. But then again, if you have the insight of oneness ... where else is there to go? There is no such thing as raising the consciousness of just the folks who are good, or "in alignment" or some other such notions. And further, stalking the darkness like that will suss out all the karma and obscuration within you faster than anything else will. This is why there are yogis and sadhu who meditate in the cremation grounds (because they recognize all is the cremation grounds). What is also interesting is that these practices themselves tends to trigger a lot of fear in folks. One of most potent practices is awesome: it will, over time, allow you to release deep trauma like few other practices will. We're talking heavy shit here: PTSD, ardent desires to self-annihilate out of shame and guilt, rape, etc. A teaching and a method that helps heal that kind of stuff, that's an awesome gift to the world. Imagine the kind of compassion it took for the originators to see into the dark and create such a gem. Yet when I have recommended it for friends, they react to it just like the first two times I encountered it in my life: great fear and aversion. For example, they'd buy the book, and keep it on the shelf, and never read it. Something inside them knows that it will work to relieve their suffering, and they avoid it like hell. They avoid it like hell because the price for relief of trauma is realization. Most people won't try it until they get desperate enough. One more thing: I don't use labels about identity. I don't consider myself a darkworker or a lightworker. Or a programmer. Or a meditator. Or any X. I might practice stalking the shadows, or emanating peace, or program computers, or meditate. Saying I am X is not impeccable. Eventually, I might even drop "I practice X", who knows? ;-)
Gtwhite90 13y ago
Thought process are really interesting to me, what kind of literature and teachings are you referring to?
- hosh 13y ago
  Sure. Lots. Vipassana. Shamanic journeys. Dream yoga. Alchemy. Many teachings arise from a very small set of essential principles (we are, after all, talking about the play of Consciousness). They come in a lot of forms, appropriate for the culture and for the individual. I guess the followup question is: what are you looking for right now?
ryanjshaw 13y ago
> hosh> Thoughts arise from emotions Not according to the theory behind one of the most effective psychotherapies we have available today [1], CBT. In the cognitive theory of behaviour, thoughts drive emotions; emotions drive behaviour, the consequences of which drive further thought, thereby creating a feedback loop. Thoughts are based upon beliefs; distorted beliefs lead to distorted thinking and distorted actions. Thought-directed self-help would be directed towards resolving these distorted beliefs. So "Positive thinking" can mean different things to different people. This article seems to be discussing a definition I would prefer to label somewhere between "wishful thinking" and "the lazy person's effortless alternative to diligent-self-help-practice that just may work if you're lucky enough to independently rediscover proven self-help techniques indirectly as a consequence of your raised consciousness, or through dumb luck". In the framework of diligent-self-help-practice, "positive thinking" can be considered as a subset of "rational thinking". CBT, for instance, acknowledges that there are often different ways to view any given situation, and that there is no single "right way". Your personal beliefs will determine which perspective you take, and therefore what emotions you will feel (and consequently what your ultimate behaviour will be). Many people are not aware of the beliefs driving their thought processes, or do not believe that beliefs are malleable, and consequently have a blind spot towards solving their problems. > benched> I just don't go out of my way to see the bright side, or try in a motivated way to hit positive notes while conversing The belief that hosh and benched appear to share - that they're just "stating the facts" for everybody else - can, from the perspective that beliefs are malleable, be seen as an unnecessarily self-limiting view of the world. For instance - let's say you've just been convicted of murder and will serve a life sentence without the possibility of parole in some hellhole. Sure, you could just "state the facts". That may lead to saying to yourself, matter of factly, "well I've just destroyed all my chances of X!". And if you believed X is the most important thing in the world to you, with this thought brought upon by your belief you may find yourself feeling suddenly very depressed at the loss of X. Now: some people accept that this is a perfectly valid perspective, but not a particularly helpful one. "Positive thinking" in this context means finding a more helpful belief to drive a more constructive perspective. Because whatever is going to happen in that hellhole is going to happen; unless you choose suicide, the best chance you can give your sanity is to give life a meaning invulnerable to what's going to happen [2]. Of course all of this is easier said than done. I'm damn sure if I were ever in this situation I would struggle very much to think positively. I do think I'd have a big advantage of coming to a constructive solution over the guy next to me who hadn't been practising positive thinking, though. A good part of CBT is helping people find and change toward more empowering beliefs but in practice our beliefs are often tightly coupled together in the worst imaginable tangle of ropes, requiring significant insight and diligence to untangle and restructure a working solution, like refactoring in-memory a production system that has been continuously developed on the wrong foundation for 20, 30, 40 or more years. Perhaps some people can sense the cognitive dissonance (that a new belief will interfere with an existing belief) but not how to resolve it (usually the introduction and/or refinement of other deeply held beliefs), and become disillusioned with the process, preferring instead to label themselves as just "stating the facts" ;) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy#Evaluation_of_effectiveness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy#Ev... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy

by hosh 13y ago

lsc 13y ago

>I was able to tune into the darker emotions and learned how to release them. There are lots and lots of methods to do this, much literature, teachings, and trainings on this. The darker emotions stay within you and color how you experience the world; unless you've had a lot of training and practice at being aware of yourself, it is unlikely that you would even know how much crap you carry, though it would feel as if you were being neutral. (It isn't that you are neutral; it is that it feels normal to you). I think it's pretty unbalanced to not have any darker emotions. I mean, certainly, one can take it too far, but I find this social pressure to be always happy to be... very fake, and very irritating.

redblacktree 13y ago
It's not about not having those emotions. It's about releasing them rather than dwelling on them. I think what you're describing is avoiding negative emotions, which actually makes things worse. You have to feel through them, if that makes any sense to you at all.
- benched 13y ago
  No offense intended, but this makes me think of how many times I've heard people speaking about 'working' with emotions. It always makes me raise an eyebrow. Examples: "Don't dwell. Release! Don't avoid... Own! Don't absorb. Transmute! Don't feed. Nurture!" I hope the idea is apparent.
  - hosh 13y ago
    Um. No, your eyebrow-raising idea is not apparent. Of course you don't dwell, you release. Of course you transmute, not absorb. Of course you nurture, not feed. All of those are emotional skills. Why do you feel so surprised about this?
    - hosh 13y ago
      All right. Would the person who downvoted the above want to explain the downvote? I was asking @benched why the person is surprised. What is obvious to @benched is not obvious to me; what is obvious to me is not obvious to @benched. What's the point of the upvote or downvote? Why did you feel the need to take the time to read all the way here and then downvote that comment?
      - lsc 13y ago
        because Benched was saying that these things sound like meaningless platitudes, then you essentially say "Of course they aren't platitudes, that is obvious!" when it isn't obvious at all to me. Then you seem to imply that anyone who doesn't find these things obvious is emotionally unskilled, whatever that means. If you took a stab at explaining what those things actually mean, I'd have upvoted. That would make for an interesting conversation, even if I didn't agree with you. As it stands, though, your post reads like a content-free insult, which is exactly the sort of thing that ought to be downvoted.

saraid216 13y ago

I have to ask, because the lack of jargon makes it harder for me to register heuristic labels. Are you talking about being a darkworker? Or is that too far afield?

jaredsohn 13y ago
I don't think that's the right jargon. Darkworkers/lightworkers are more about serving yourself vs. the greater good. (i.e. making money via phishing is more darkworker while building Watsi is more lightworker.)
- saraid216 13y ago
  Eh. The way I heard it discussed, that was exactly the kind of simplistic misconception that made people think darkworking was terribad. The way hosh talks about tuning into your "darker emotions" and "releasing them" reminds me of those conversations.
hosh 13y ago
@saraid216 No, that's not too far afield, though if you want to get into the details, I'd rather discuss this privately. Indirect contact methods are in my profile. I have never heard someone use the term "darkworker" until you brought it up, but it makes sense if people are going to talk about "lightworker". I have met and know a lot of folks who polarize things like that; many of them have great wisdom and I respect it, yet at the same time, I have learned not to bring up things like deliberately stalking your shadow. It freaks them out too much. I'll try to describe this in a way that is OK for a public forum (and as I said, feel free to contact me privately). If you ever had the experience of unity consciousness, that is the base. A lot of "lightworkers" have experienced that. However, I don't think they ever went through the implications of what that experience means. For them, there is some notion of "alignment with source" or something similar. Lots of wisdom comes out from it. However, if you have attained in the insight of oneness ... then how can anything, no matter how dark, terrifying, or evil be not an emanation of source? There are significant teachings and methods where, after attaining the insight of oneness, you have a basic connection of true nature; and as such, you can also recognize true nature in any and all phenomena. It is in this way that transmutation can happen. You stalk the shadows in order to bring light there, to see the truth for yourself and to see the truth within the dark. It is also risky, since, this kind of practice easily attracts people who have a fixation on darkness (for a variety of reasons). Or, if you have any shred of arrogance, or messiah complex, or trying to be the hero, all of that comes out when you stalk the shadows. But then again, if you have the insight of oneness ... where else is there to go? There is no such thing as raising the consciousness of just the folks who are good, or "in alignment" or some other such notions. And further, stalking the darkness like that will suss out all the karma and obscuration within you faster than anything else will. This is why there are yogis and sadhu who meditate in the cremation grounds (because they recognize all is the cremation grounds). What is also interesting is that these practices themselves tends to trigger a lot of fear in folks. One of most potent practices is awesome: it will, over time, allow you to release deep trauma like few other practices will. We're talking heavy shit here: PTSD, ardent desires to self-annihilate out of shame and guilt, rape, etc. A teaching and a method that helps heal that kind of stuff, that's an awesome gift to the world. Imagine the kind of compassion it took for the originators to see into the dark and create such a gem. Yet when I have recommended it for friends, they react to it just like the first two times I encountered it in my life: great fear and aversion. For example, they'd buy the book, and keep it on the shelf, and never read it. Something inside them knows that it will work to relieve their suffering, and they avoid it like hell. They avoid it like hell because the price for relief of trauma is realization. Most people won't try it until they get desperate enough. One more thing: I don't use labels about identity. I don't consider myself a darkworker or a lightworker. Or a programmer. Or a meditator. Or any X. I might practice stalking the shadows, or emanating peace, or program computers, or meditate. Saying I am X is not impeccable. Eventually, I might even drop "I practice X", who knows? ;-)

Gtwhite90 13y ago

Thought process are really interesting to me, what kind of literature and teachings are you referring to?

hosh 13y ago
Sure. Lots. Vipassana. Shamanic journeys. Dream yoga. Alchemy. Many teachings arise from a very small set of essential principles (we are, after all, talking about the play of Consciousness). They come in a lot of forms, appropriate for the culture and for the individual. I guess the followup question is: what are you looking for right now?

ryanjshaw 13y ago

> hosh> Thoughts arise from emotions Not according to the theory behind one of the most effective psychotherapies we have available today [1], CBT. In the cognitive theory of behaviour, thoughts drive emotions; emotions drive behaviour, the consequences of which drive further thought, thereby creating a feedback loop. Thoughts are based upon beliefs; distorted beliefs lead to distorted thinking and distorted actions. Thought-directed self-help would be directed towards resolving these distorted beliefs. So "Positive thinking" can mean different things to different people. This article seems to be discussing a definition I would prefer to label somewhere between "wishful thinking" and "the lazy person's effortless alternative to diligent-self-help-practice that just may work if you're lucky enough to independently rediscover proven self-help techniques indirectly as a consequence of your raised consciousness, or through dumb luck". In the framework of diligent-self-help-practice, "positive thinking" can be considered as a subset of "rational thinking". CBT, for instance, acknowledges that there are often different ways to view any given situation, and that there is no single "right way". Your personal beliefs will determine which perspective you take, and therefore what emotions you will feel (and consequently what your ultimate behaviour will be). Many people are not aware of the beliefs driving their thought processes, or do not believe that beliefs are malleable, and consequently have a blind spot towards solving their problems. > benched> I just don't go out of my way to see the bright side, or try in a motivated way to hit positive notes while conversing The belief that hosh and benched appear to share - that they're just "stating the facts" for everybody else - can, from the perspective that beliefs are malleable, be seen as an unnecessarily self-limiting view of the world. For instance - let's say you've just been convicted of murder and will serve a life sentence without the possibility of parole in some hellhole. Sure, you could just "state the facts". That may lead to saying to yourself, matter of factly, "well I've just destroyed all my chances of X!". And if you believed X is the most important thing in the world to you, with this thought brought upon by your belief you may find yourself feeling suddenly very depressed at the loss of X. Now: some people accept that this is a perfectly valid perspective, but not a particularly helpful one. "Positive thinking" in this context means finding a more helpful belief to drive a more constructive perspective. Because whatever is going to happen in that hellhole is going to happen; unless you choose suicide, the best chance you can give your sanity is to give life a meaning invulnerable to what's going to happen [2]. Of course all of this is easier said than done. I'm damn sure if I were ever in this situation I would struggle very much to think positively. I do think I'd have a big advantage of coming to a constructive solution over the guy next to me who hadn't been practising positive thinking, though. A good part of CBT is helping people find and change toward more empowering beliefs but in practice our beliefs are often tightly coupled together in the worst imaginable tangle of ropes, requiring significant insight and diligence to untangle and restructure a working solution, like refactoring in-memory a production system that has been continuously developed on the wrong foundation for 20, 30, 40 or more years. Perhaps some people can sense the cognitive dissonance (that a new belief will interfere with an existing belief) but not how to resolve it (usually the introduction and/or refinement of other deeply held beliefs), and become disillusioned with the process, preferring instead to label themselves as just "stating the facts" ;) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy#Evaluation_of_effectiveness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy#Ev... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy