7 ms·

How elitist is the hiring process? I'm always really hesitant to apply to places like that. I'm consistently one of the best developers at my job, I'm really go

by xauronx 13y ago

How elitist is the hiring process? I'm always really hesitant to apply to places like that. I'm consistently one of the best developers at my job, I'm really good at getting shit done, and have a ton of faith in my ability. However, as soon as I think about applying at a "trendy" start up, I envision someone grilling me for hours to hand write sorting algorithms on a white board. I have no interest in that, and I feel that it has very little bearing on how good someone is at software development.

tyre 13y ago
My name is Chris, also an engineer at ZenPayroll. We're not interested in a candidate's ability to write sorting algorithms, because those aren't the kind of problems we're solving. Our technical interviews are working on a problem with an engineer. We care a hell of a lot more about how you think than regurgitating Big O notation. We work in Ruby and CoffeeScript, but we've hired engineers without direct experience in either because we knew they could translate their ample programming knowledge. We're looking for smart people that want to do the best work of their lives. That sounds like bullshit, but we're pretty serious about that. Turns out you can hire smart, passionate people and they'll naturally do awesome things. For a more in depth look at how we think about hiring, you can check out: ZenPayroll Is Not Hiring Hackers https://zenpayroll.com/blog/zenpayroll-is-not-hiring-hackers/ https://zenpayroll.com/blog/zenpayroll-is-not-hiring-hackers... The Value of Cultural Interviews https://maddo.xxx/thoughts/how-to-conduct-cultural-interviews https://maddo.xxx/thoughts/how-to-conduct-cultural-interview... If you have any questions, shoot me an email. I'm chris@
- xauronx 13y ago
  Thank you for the thorough reply. I appreciate that you guys recognize sorting algorithms are not the daily work of an engineer. Working on a problem with another engineer is actually what I consider to be the "perfect" interview. Aside from getting a developer in for an entire week as a trial run, I feel like that's probably the best way to see if they're fit for the team and capable of the work. The question is whether or not I'm a "hacker" :)
- RogerL 13y ago
  Do you have any evidence for the claims in The Value of Cultural Interviews? Because, to be honest, I looked at your Careers page and it made my skin crawl. Everyone looked the same, everyone was in the same age demographic, everyone had similar hobbies, you want to be their family (I have a family, thank you, and I work for you to do something interesting and to support my real family). More to the point (yes, I worry that I'm not being pointed enough ;) ) I have worked with plenty of people that weren't a 'cultural' fit with me, and we did great things. So, I have evidence in direct contradiction of your claims.
  - tyre 13y ago
    On the one hand, this is almost impossible to scientifically prove. You can't reproduce companies, as in building the same exact product with equally talented people where one has great cultural continuity and the other doesn't. It comes down to the way you want to spend your time. If all you want is a paycheck, that's fine. Take the money, go do something else you feel is more important. I don't mean that we are a family in that we're trying to replace your actual blood relatives. If you're spending 10 hours a day with a group of people, would you rather give yourself to a cause with a group of people you trust, believe in, who you genuinely want to see succeed beyond any selfish desires of your own, or a group clocking in for a paycheck? Ultimately, which situation do you think will make you happier? I'm not asserting that it is what everyone wants, but these are our values. This is the type of company we want to build.
grinich 13y ago
This is like complaining that you need to write an application essay to get into college. "But I'm not going to be a writer..." If the company is awesome, just suck it up for a day. Once you join you can try to change the interviewing process. I think the thing most people don't realize is that these traditional "interviewing" techniques (like whiteboard coding) are just what gets you in the door. Your real interview starts on day 1, and if you don't perform at the real task, you'll be asked to leave. Writing sorting algorithms is like tuning a guitar. It's true there exist people who are good at tuning but actually terrible at playing (ie: good at puzzles, but lousy programmers). But there are few, if any, amazing guitarists who can't quickly tune an instrument. It's a signal.
- vonmoltke 13y ago
  > This is like complaining that you need to write an application essay to get into college. "But I'm not going to be a writer..." If my application essay was graded for spelling, grammar, sentence construction, complexity, and other features like I were writing for the AP English exam, I would agree completely with that statement. However, the purpose of such an essay is to communicate why you will succeed in your studies and why the university should admit you. Yes, it takes a minimum level of writing proficiency to do this, but that should be secondary to the message. If you are a university admissions officer who is grading essays on proficiency you should be fired for not doing your job properly. > If the company is awesome, just suck it up for a day. Once you join you can try to change the interviewing process. Which just perpetuates the system. > I think the thing most people don't realize is that these traditional "interviewing" techniques (like whiteboard coding) are just what gets you in the door. Your real interview starts on day 1, and if you don't perform at the real task, you'll be asked to leave. Then why the hell are you doing them? Just randomly choose a resume that has enough buzzwords and make that person an offer. > Writing sorting algorithms is like tuning a guitar. It's true there exist people who are good at tuning but actually terrible at playing (ie: good at puzzles, but lousy programmers). > But there are few, if any, amazing guitarists who can't quickly tune an instrument. It's a signal. Writing sorting algorithms for a software developer is like tuning a guitar for a musician. Both are broad terms that cover a number of specialties. Most specialties of software developer can write efficient sorting algorithms, but some can't because they have no need to. If you want to hire a guitarist, advertise that you are looking for a guitarist; don't advertise that you are looking for a musician and reject everyone who isn't a guitarist at the interview stage.

by xauronx 13y ago

tyre 13y ago

My name is Chris, also an engineer at ZenPayroll. We're not interested in a candidate's ability to write sorting algorithms, because those aren't the kind of problems we're solving. Our technical interviews are working on a problem with an engineer. We care a hell of a lot more about how you think than regurgitating Big O notation. We work in Ruby and CoffeeScript, but we've hired engineers without direct experience in either because we knew they could translate their ample programming knowledge. We're looking for smart people that want to do the best work of their lives. That sounds like bullshit, but we're pretty serious about that. Turns out you can hire smart, passionate people and they'll naturally do awesome things. For a more in depth look at how we think about hiring, you can check out: ZenPayroll Is Not Hiring Hackers https://zenpayroll.com/blog/zenpayroll-is-not-hiring-hackers/ https://zenpayroll.com/blog/zenpayroll-is-not-hiring-hackers... The Value of Cultural Interviews https://maddo.xxx/thoughts/how-to-conduct-cultural-interviews https://maddo.xxx/thoughts/how-to-conduct-cultural-interview... If you have any questions, shoot me an email. I'm chris@

xauronx 13y ago
Thank you for the thorough reply. I appreciate that you guys recognize sorting algorithms are not the daily work of an engineer. Working on a problem with another engineer is actually what I consider to be the "perfect" interview. Aside from getting a developer in for an entire week as a trial run, I feel like that's probably the best way to see if they're fit for the team and capable of the work. The question is whether or not I'm a "hacker" :)
RogerL 13y ago
Do you have any evidence for the claims in The Value of Cultural Interviews? Because, to be honest, I looked at your Careers page and it made my skin crawl. Everyone looked the same, everyone was in the same age demographic, everyone had similar hobbies, you want to be their family (I have a family, thank you, and I work for you to do something interesting and to support my real family). More to the point (yes, I worry that I'm not being pointed enough ;) ) I have worked with plenty of people that weren't a 'cultural' fit with me, and we did great things. So, I have evidence in direct contradiction of your claims.
- tyre 13y ago
  On the one hand, this is almost impossible to scientifically prove. You can't reproduce companies, as in building the same exact product with equally talented people where one has great cultural continuity and the other doesn't. It comes down to the way you want to spend your time. If all you want is a paycheck, that's fine. Take the money, go do something else you feel is more important. I don't mean that we are a family in that we're trying to replace your actual blood relatives. If you're spending 10 hours a day with a group of people, would you rather give yourself to a cause with a group of people you trust, believe in, who you genuinely want to see succeed beyond any selfish desires of your own, or a group clocking in for a paycheck? Ultimately, which situation do you think will make you happier? I'm not asserting that it is what everyone wants, but these are our values. This is the type of company we want to build.

grinich 13y ago

This is like complaining that you need to write an application essay to get into college. "But I'm not going to be a writer..." If the company is awesome, just suck it up for a day. Once you join you can try to change the interviewing process. I think the thing most people don't realize is that these traditional "interviewing" techniques (like whiteboard coding) are just what gets you in the door. Your real interview starts on day 1, and if you don't perform at the real task, you'll be asked to leave. Writing sorting algorithms is like tuning a guitar. It's true there exist people who are good at tuning but actually terrible at playing (ie: good at puzzles, but lousy programmers). But there are few, if any, amazing guitarists who can't quickly tune an instrument. It's a signal.

vonmoltke 13y ago
> This is like complaining that you need to write an application essay to get into college. "But I'm not going to be a writer..." If my application essay was graded for spelling, grammar, sentence construction, complexity, and other features like I were writing for the AP English exam, I would agree completely with that statement. However, the purpose of such an essay is to communicate why you will succeed in your studies and why the university should admit you. Yes, it takes a minimum level of writing proficiency to do this, but that should be secondary to the message. If you are a university admissions officer who is grading essays on proficiency you should be fired for not doing your job properly. > If the company is awesome, just suck it up for a day. Once you join you can try to change the interviewing process. Which just perpetuates the system. > I think the thing most people don't realize is that these traditional "interviewing" techniques (like whiteboard coding) are just what gets you in the door. Your real interview starts on day 1, and if you don't perform at the real task, you'll be asked to leave. Then why the hell are you doing them? Just randomly choose a resume that has enough buzzwords and make that person an offer. > Writing sorting algorithms is like tuning a guitar. It's true there exist people who are good at tuning but actually terrible at playing (ie: good at puzzles, but lousy programmers). > But there are few, if any, amazing guitarists who can't quickly tune an instrument. It's a signal. Writing sorting algorithms for a software developer is like tuning a guitar for a musician. Both are broad terms that cover a number of specialties. Most specialties of software developer can write efficient sorting algorithms, but some can't because they have no need to. If you want to hire a guitarist, advertise that you are looking for a guitarist; don't advertise that you are looking for a musician and reject everyone who isn't a guitarist at the interview stage.