5 ms·

Or we can replace the internet with a mesh net and solve the problem of regulation, centralized control and ISPs altogether :)

samelawrence 13y ago
This sentence blows my mind, and I don't know enough to understand it. Could someone helpful point me to a relevant Wiki article or something to help me grok how this could be possible?
- jwarkentin 13y ago
  A mesh network is a distributed network that removes the concept of having a single point of access as we do now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network
- lrem 13y ago
  The basics: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_ad_hoc_network> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_ad_hoc_network> The instability of the network requires a bit different approach to networking in general: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay-tolerant_networking> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay-tolerant_networking> In short: you can do email, with high probability, but more often than not can forget about VoIP.
  - jwarkentin 13y ago
    I don't think it's fair to say that as a generality. The stability and latency of the network very much depends on the routing protocol used as well as the strength of the connection between the nodes (assuming it's a wireless mesh). There are many routing protocols that are more robust. Some protocols are tolerant of devices moving, some are not. Some are self-healing, some are not. Some have to map out the full route to a device before sending data, some are only aware of the next hop. There are a lot of options, each with their advantages in different situations. It's not so clear cut. It can be fast or it can be slow. It can be stable or not. It very much depends on the particular network protocol and setup.
    - lrem 13y ago
      Reading your comment I felt we agree on the facts. For personal opinions, I will reiterate: I don't see it happening in practice. Cool idea on so many levels, just the incentives aren't there to make it happen in current society.
  - jwarkentin 13y ago
    Since I can't reply to your last two comments (too deeply nested I guess), I'll comment here. I agree that right now it's not going to happen, no matter how many different efforts there are out there. For it to really happen I think we would have to come up with a plan that would actually work, in terms of creating a massive world-wide mesh network. There would have to be a lot of consideration for things like security, DDoS mitigation, speed, standards and upgradeability. If developing a viable mesh network for the task weren't tough enough, there would also have to be a plan for migration which is really the hard part. Getting everybody in the world moved over to a new network would be nothing short of a miracle.
lrem 13y ago
As someone who spent his PhD in a building with people working on mesh nets I just want to ask one question: Would you accept return to text-only communication, not always instantaneous? If so, mesh nets are there for us.
- jwarkentin 13y ago
  Did you know that cell phone networks today are mesh networks? There is a huge amount of work going into mesh network development, though admittedly, there's still a long way to go. Also, did you see this (one of many interesting efforts): http://openlibernet.org/faq.html http://openlibernet.org/faq.html All that said, even if we just had a functioning alternative (even if it were significantly slower), it would give us options when we need uncensored, unregulated communication. It's better than having absolutely no options when your government oversteps its bounds.
  - lrem 13y ago
    AFAIK cell phones are "mesh" in a bit different meaning of that word. Remote BTS-es have high connectivity provided over radio, which creates a mesh. But it is still centrally administered. It is way closer to switches of your ISP having STP turned on than to the openlibernet. Speaking of which, a nice incentive. I see FAQ expresses everything that should be told, in an honest way. Good read for someone who wants to know about mesh networks. I would also love something like it to become commonplace. But as it is not a viable alternative to the Internet and does not add anything while the system has not went mad... I don't see it happening any soon.
  - maxsilver 13y ago
    > Did you know that cell phone networks today are mesh networks? I don't think this is true, at least not using Wikipedia definition of "mesh network". Mesh Networks are where each node relays data to other nodes, with data "hopping" from node to node. That does not happen on cell networks. Each phone relays data to a cell tower, but thats it. There's no "hopping" from phone to phone, or from tower to tower. (Your phone might move between towers, taking a phone call from one tower to another as you drive, but there's never more than one "hop". Your phone call never jumps through three cell towers before hitting backhaul, for instance.) For the same reason that having a few Wifi hotspots backhauled in a building isn't a "mesh network", a cell phone network is also not a "mesh network".

samelawrence 13y ago

This sentence blows my mind, and I don't know enough to understand it. Could someone helpful point me to a relevant Wiki article or something to help me grok how this could be possible?

jwarkentin 13y ago
A mesh network is a distributed network that removes the concept of having a single point of access as we do now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network
lrem 13y ago
The basics: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_ad_hoc_network> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_ad_hoc_network> The instability of the network requires a bit different approach to networking in general: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay-tolerant_networking> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay-tolerant_networking> In short: you can do email, with high probability, but more often than not can forget about VoIP.
- jwarkentin 13y ago
  I don't think it's fair to say that as a generality. The stability and latency of the network very much depends on the routing protocol used as well as the strength of the connection between the nodes (assuming it's a wireless mesh). There are many routing protocols that are more robust. Some protocols are tolerant of devices moving, some are not. Some are self-healing, some are not. Some have to map out the full route to a device before sending data, some are only aware of the next hop. There are a lot of options, each with their advantages in different situations. It's not so clear cut. It can be fast or it can be slow. It can be stable or not. It very much depends on the particular network protocol and setup.
  - lrem 13y ago
    Reading your comment I felt we agree on the facts. For personal opinions, I will reiterate: I don't see it happening in practice. Cool idea on so many levels, just the incentives aren't there to make it happen in current society.
- jwarkentin 13y ago
  Since I can't reply to your last two comments (too deeply nested I guess), I'll comment here. I agree that right now it's not going to happen, no matter how many different efforts there are out there. For it to really happen I think we would have to come up with a plan that would actually work, in terms of creating a massive world-wide mesh network. There would have to be a lot of consideration for things like security, DDoS mitigation, speed, standards and upgradeability. If developing a viable mesh network for the task weren't tough enough, there would also have to be a plan for migration which is really the hard part. Getting everybody in the world moved over to a new network would be nothing short of a miracle.

lrem 13y ago

As someone who spent his PhD in a building with people working on mesh nets I just want to ask one question: Would you accept return to text-only communication, not always instantaneous? If so, mesh nets are there for us.

jwarkentin 13y ago
Did you know that cell phone networks today are mesh networks? There is a huge amount of work going into mesh network development, though admittedly, there's still a long way to go. Also, did you see this (one of many interesting efforts): http://openlibernet.org/faq.html http://openlibernet.org/faq.html All that said, even if we just had a functioning alternative (even if it were significantly slower), it would give us options when we need uncensored, unregulated communication. It's better than having absolutely no options when your government oversteps its bounds.
- lrem 13y ago
  AFAIK cell phones are "mesh" in a bit different meaning of that word. Remote BTS-es have high connectivity provided over radio, which creates a mesh. But it is still centrally administered. It is way closer to switches of your ISP having STP turned on than to the openlibernet. Speaking of which, a nice incentive. I see FAQ expresses everything that should be told, in an honest way. Good read for someone who wants to know about mesh networks. I would also love something like it to become commonplace. But as it is not a viable alternative to the Internet and does not add anything while the system has not went mad... I don't see it happening any soon.
- maxsilver 13y ago
  > Did you know that cell phone networks today are mesh networks? I don't think this is true, at least not using Wikipedia definition of "mesh network". Mesh Networks are where each node relays data to other nodes, with data "hopping" from node to node. That does not happen on cell networks. Each phone relays data to a cell tower, but thats it. There's no "hopping" from phone to phone, or from tower to tower. (Your phone might move between towers, taking a phone call from one tower to another as you drive, but there's never more than one "hop". Your phone call never jumps through three cell towers before hitting backhaul, for instance.) For the same reason that having a few Wifi hotspots backhauled in a building isn't a "mesh network", a cell phone network is also not a "mesh network".