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To be honest though, the UK has been beyond laughable for a few years on this now. During the great Icelandic banking crisis, the UK government used anti-terro

To be honest though, the UK has been beyond laughable for a few years on this now. During the great Icelandic banking crisis, the UK government used anti-terrorism laws to seize assets held by Icelandic banks. I quipped at the time that maybe they were worried about the assets being used to buy lumber for longships from Norway and wealthy bankers going a-Viking again. They might furthermore give the folks up in Orkney ideas and what then? Lose Caithness and Sutherland? That's an existential threat there.... If it was legal to use anti-terrorism laws in that case against a foreign entity far removed from any real terrorist activity (moreso than, say, the British-owned HSBC), then it is hard to see how antiterrorism laws wouldn't be perfectly legal here or anywhere else. Maybe they can start arresting people for drinking tea suspiciously.

celticninja 13y ago
Ant-terrorism laws have been used by local councils to spy on parents to make sure they lived at addresses they say they lived at for the purpose of primary school (5-10years of age) applications. Anti-terror laws have been used way beyond their original intentions for a long time in the UK. In this case the original proponent of the legislation has come out and said excactly that. Will it change anything? Nope.
- cmdkeen 13y ago
  There's been a change since the late 90s away from practising barristers being MPs. It used to be that barristers would be in court in the morning, see problems with legislation, and go to Westminster in the afternoon to fix them. Now of course the media, and parties that never had many barristers in them, demand MPs work "full time" - which means there is far less legal expertise available in drafting and scrutinising legislation. That's why things like the Terrorism Act happen. The name gets politicians to vote for it, but the contents is overlooked and full of powers that are not scoped to terrorism investigations.
- matthewmacleod 13y ago
  I dispute that RIPA is actually an "anti-terror" law in any way aside from popular description.
  - iamwithnail 13y ago
    I concur. RIPA was not about terror, especially when it was passed. It's a generally applicable law that's been mis-used in the name of 'security' and 'safety', in the same way that stop and search from PACE is.
- jackgavigan 13y ago
  Legislation introduced during 2012 limited the circumstances under which councils could use RIPA powers [1] and required judicial approval for the exercise of those powers [2]. [1]: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1500/article/2/made http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1500/article/2/made [2]: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/part/2/chapter/2/enacted http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/part/2/chapter/2/...
- kashkhan 13y ago
  it won't change anything if you do nothing. It will get worse unless someone materially objects.
jackgavigan 13y ago
> During the great Icelandic banking crisis, the UK government used anti-terrorism laws to seize assets held by Icelandic banks. This is an oft-repeated distortion of the truth. The UK government did not seize any assets but, rather made a freezing order to prevent UK depositors' money being transferred from an Icelandic banks' UK-based subsidiary to Iceland (it was clear at the time that the Icelandic government intended to use - "steal" is probably a better word - foreign depositors' money to ensure that Icelandic depositors didn't lose out). The freezing order was enacted under section 2 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, on the basis that HM Treasury believed that "action to the detriment of the United Kingdom’s economy (or part of it) has been or is likely to be taken" by the Icelandic government. Critics of the UK governments' actions disingenuously refer to it as "anti-terrorism" legislation, conveniently ignoring the "Crime and Security" part of the Act's name. The freezing order was exercised correctly, appropriately and proportionally. A fuller discussion of the topic can be found at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7142487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7142487 David Miranda was found to be carrying tens of thousands of classified UK intelligence documents. I think he's lucky to have been allowed to go free, and not arrested for espionage. I suspect that the authorities felt a little sorry for him, given that he'd clearly been exploited by Greenwald.
- blueskin_ 13y ago
  Common misconception. It's a law that relates to any crime, terrorism is just the primary focus.
  - dTal 13y ago
    Sounds like shorthand for "we used the threat of terrorism to push these otherwise unacceptable powers through, but we've worded it broadly enough to apply it to anything".
- naterator 13y ago
  >David Miranda was found to be carrying tens of thousands of classified UK intelligence documents. Was he, though? I mean, we all "know" he was carrying secret documents, but have they ever proven that? If the files are encrypted and they can't crack it to prove what those documents were, then we don't know anything. For all we know (and unless there are news reports I haven't seen), Miranda/Greenwald/Poitras could have encrypted a million pictures of Rick Astley, deliberately to see if they could pull the government into abusing it's power.
teddyh 13y ago
OT: I suddenly wish for a GreaseMonkey script which would replace all instances of the word “terrorist” with “viking”. I feel this would make the world a better place, somehow.
- garblegarble 13y ago
  An excellent idea, I agree! http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/391877 http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/391877
  - teddyh 13y ago
    Gasp ☺ That was even more awesome than I thought it would be. Thank you indeed.

celticninja 13y ago

Ant-terrorism laws have been used by local councils to spy on parents to make sure they lived at addresses they say they lived at for the purpose of primary school (5-10years of age) applications. Anti-terror laws have been used way beyond their original intentions for a long time in the UK. In this case the original proponent of the legislation has come out and said excactly that. Will it change anything? Nope.

cmdkeen 13y ago
There's been a change since the late 90s away from practising barristers being MPs. It used to be that barristers would be in court in the morning, see problems with legislation, and go to Westminster in the afternoon to fix them. Now of course the media, and parties that never had many barristers in them, demand MPs work "full time" - which means there is far less legal expertise available in drafting and scrutinising legislation. That's why things like the Terrorism Act happen. The name gets politicians to vote for it, but the contents is overlooked and full of powers that are not scoped to terrorism investigations.
matthewmacleod 13y ago
I dispute that RIPA is actually an "anti-terror" law in any way aside from popular description.
- iamwithnail 13y ago
  I concur. RIPA was not about terror, especially when it was passed. It's a generally applicable law that's been mis-used in the name of 'security' and 'safety', in the same way that stop and search from PACE is.
jackgavigan 13y ago
Legislation introduced during 2012 limited the circumstances under which councils could use RIPA powers [1] and required judicial approval for the exercise of those powers [2]. [1]: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1500/article/2/made http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1500/article/2/made [2]: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/part/2/chapter/2/enacted http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/part/2/chapter/2/...
kashkhan 13y ago
it won't change anything if you do nothing. It will get worse unless someone materially objects.

jackgavigan 13y ago

> During the great Icelandic banking crisis, the UK government used anti-terrorism laws to seize assets held by Icelandic banks. This is an oft-repeated distortion of the truth. The UK government did not seize any assets but, rather made a freezing order to prevent UK depositors' money being transferred from an Icelandic banks' UK-based subsidiary to Iceland (it was clear at the time that the Icelandic government intended to use - "steal" is probably a better word - foreign depositors' money to ensure that Icelandic depositors didn't lose out). The freezing order was enacted under section 2 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, on the basis that HM Treasury believed that "action to the detriment of the United Kingdom’s economy (or part of it) has been or is likely to be taken" by the Icelandic government. Critics of the UK governments' actions disingenuously refer to it as "anti-terrorism" legislation, conveniently ignoring the "Crime and Security" part of the Act's name. The freezing order was exercised correctly, appropriately and proportionally. A fuller discussion of the topic can be found at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7142487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7142487 David Miranda was found to be carrying tens of thousands of classified UK intelligence documents. I think he's lucky to have been allowed to go free, and not arrested for espionage. I suspect that the authorities felt a little sorry for him, given that he'd clearly been exploited by Greenwald.

blueskin_ 13y ago
Common misconception. It's a law that relates to any crime, terrorism is just the primary focus.
- dTal 13y ago
  Sounds like shorthand for "we used the threat of terrorism to push these otherwise unacceptable powers through, but we've worded it broadly enough to apply it to anything".
naterator 13y ago
>David Miranda was found to be carrying tens of thousands of classified UK intelligence documents. Was he, though? I mean, we all "know" he was carrying secret documents, but have they ever proven that? If the files are encrypted and they can't crack it to prove what those documents were, then we don't know anything. For all we know (and unless there are news reports I haven't seen), Miranda/Greenwald/Poitras could have encrypted a million pictures of Rick Astley, deliberately to see if they could pull the government into abusing it's power.

teddyh 13y ago

OT: I suddenly wish for a GreaseMonkey script which would replace all instances of the word “terrorist” with “viking”. I feel this would make the world a better place, somehow.

garblegarble 13y ago
An excellent idea, I agree! http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/391877 http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/391877
- teddyh 13y ago
  Gasp ☺ That was even more awesome than I thought it would be. Thank you indeed.