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And again this is extremely one-sided. Propagandistic even. And it makes it to the top of HN. Again. "THE POLICE IS READY TO SHOOT". But she won't say that it'

by Aoyagi 13y ago

And again this is extremely one-sided. Propagandistic even. And it makes it to the top of HN. Again. "THE POLICE IS READY TO SHOOT". But she won't say that it's with rubber slugs or that the protesters are throwing molotovs and shooting fireworks (which can deal nasty damage). Rocks are implied, I think. I tried to really dig into the affair, but it's too complicated with both sides corrupt (like it typically happens in the former USSR), Putin blaming EU for everything while seeding billions to the Ukrainian government, non-transparent government-opposition talks, news sites hunting for sensations... It feels like it's impossible to make an objective (or close to it) idea about the whole situation. And this video isn't helping one bit. As much as I hate the current Ukrainian government, I'm not sure they have anything better. Pretty horrible situation.

daliusd 13y ago
Not everyone is Gandhi or Dalai Lama.
- spingsprong 13y ago
  If you look into it, not even Gandhi or the Dalai Lama is Gandhi or the Dalai Lama.
- kamaal 13y ago
  It is difficult to see how Gandhi's methods could be applied in a country where opponents of the regime disappear in the middle of the night and are never heard of again. Without a free press and the right of assembly, it is impossible not merely to appeal to outside opinion, but to bring a mass movement into being, or even to make your intentions known to your adversary. -- George Orwell There are places on earth where mere non-violent non co-operation just can't work. Basically because no one knows what you are doing, why you are doing and what your actual story is. If the opponent force is simply too overwhelming, powerful and has too much sway. Non violent non co operation doesn't help much.
  - btilly 13y ago
    When I was growing up, one of the standard places that used to be cited for this line of reasoning was the Eastern Block. And certainly looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring there was evidence that peaceful protest wouldn't work. But what happened? Oh right. Peaceful protest brought down the Soviet block.
    - daliusd 13y ago
      I'm from Eastern Europe. I'm still not sure if we got extremely lucky (e.g. economical situation of Soviet Union being in very bad condition, US getting technological breakthrough with personal computers) or "peaceful" part actually worked out.
      - btilly 13y ago
        The theory I've heard which makes the most sense is that the CIA and Catholic Church had an alliance of convenience. The CIA provided resources (including training materials), the Church had a network to distribute them where they were needed. They did a trial run with Solidarity in Poland (not coincidentally the home country of the pope at the time) and then rolled it out on a larger scale after that succeeded.
    - sgift 13y ago
      What brought down the Soviet Block in the end was Mikhail Gorbachev deciding that there's enough blood on soviet hands and that they won't react the same way they did in the Prague Spring. He could have decided otherwise, he didn't. Shall the protesters hope the same will happen now? Didn't work so far.
    - kamaal 13y ago
      I'm a little young, so I don't have as much perspective of the recent history as you do. But every instance of non-violent non-co operation(Lets call it with the name Gandhi gave to it - ahimsa/satyagraha) works only because of the opponents get weak after a point of time. Indian Independence movement worked because in the course of WW2 the British lost the gumption they had earlier to control a nation as big as India. They were running out of resources, ideas and means to stay in India anymore. Gandhi's movement gave British too much bad across the world. Plus WW2 and WW1 had really taken a toll on the British. So it was a mixture of all these things + Gandhi's movement that make ahims/satyagraha work. I guess its the same with USSR too? Didn't this whole cold war thing come too heavy on the Soviets? The way I understand they were in deep financial crisis and were facing an imminent defeat in Afghanistan.
mtrimpe 13y ago
The EU was ready to have Ukraine go through another one of their lengthy entry processes where over a period of years requirements are progressively put in place to enable joining the EU. The current protests erupted when one of the first steps along that path was openly scuttled by Russia applying a huge amount of financial leverage. It is true that only half of Ukraine wants to join the west, but it's also clear that this is a clash between Russian interests and that of the European-minded population in Ukraine; not with EU/US in any significant way. There is a lot of schadenfreude going on of course because it's a huge blemish on Sochi as Putin's PR offensive and Western media are eager to rub it in as much as they can. Ironically enough, according to rumours, this all started because Putin ordered Ukraine's president to 'fix this' before the Olympics started and the unsuccessful police crackdown started the current chain of escalations.
- x0054 13y ago
  It is NOT true that ONLY half of the population want's to join EU or at least get rid of Putin's influence. Majority of Ukraine wants this!
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    From what I've understood half geographically (which is indeed the majority of the population) wants to actually join the EU and the other half mostly just wants the corruption to stop. Is that not correct?
    - x0054 13y ago
      I found the ethnic chart here fairly accurate http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09/this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09... (I did not read the article, just looked at the charts, which look to be in agreement with my personal experience). I would say that about 20% of the very east part of the country is largely pro Russia, as well as most of Crimea. But even the pro-Russia people don't necessarily think Ukraine should join Russia, almost everyone want's the corruption to stop, as you have pointed out. And I have yet to find a single Ukrainian, Russian speaking or not, who would have anything good to say about Putin. Of course, in most parts of Russia, outside Moscow, you will rarely find anyone who doesn't outright hate that bustard. I think most people want both Yanukovych and Putin out of their country. So maybe you are right, not every one is pro-EU, but most I would say are unti-Putin.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rds2000 13y ago
I think sometimes something as petty as wanting an ego-trip motivates this post, more so than really caring about disadvantaged people. I feel everyone gets a temporary jolt of validation from being voted up. However, it should be in exchanged for adding value (being insightful, interesting, useful, funny).
sbank 13y ago
> But she won't say that it's with rubber slugs or that the protesters are throwing molotovs and shooting fireworks (which can deal nasty damage). Rocks are implied, I think. Well, the protesters can't exactly afford highly sophisticated weapons made to inflict pain but not (too much) damage. They don't have the luxury of spending tax money on expensive equipment. The only reason there are rubber bullets is because they probably don't find it in their self-interest to use something more heavy at the current time. The government can slaughter its own people in a matter of hours if they want to, and face no resistance from some pathetic molotov cocktails. Maybe the video is one-sided (I haven't seen it yet), but comparing the two sides in the way you do does not make any sense to me.
- insuffi 13y ago
  The keyword in your post is protesters. Using molotov cocktails, rocks and fireworks makes it a riot. Also, I think it'd be useful to think about how western countries would handle this kind of "protest".
nhaehnle 13y ago
Thank you for that. As a European, I would add that you really need to be aware that the country seems to be split along historical lines: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24/this-is-the-one-map-you-need-to-understand-ukraines-crisis/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24... It seems that Kiev, the capital, happens to be in a region that is dominated by Ukrainian-speaking people, who feel closer to (Western/Central) Europe than to Russia. Therefore, a lot of protests are happening in the capital, which makes it easy for the media to paint a picture of an entire country with a pro-European bent in revolt against its pro-Russian government. That narrative conveniently ignores the huge pro-Russian part of the country. Things would play out very differently if Kiev were in the pro-Russian part of the Ukraine.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  Fun fact: Kiev was settled by a group that, although they were linguistically part of Northern rather than Eastern Europe, gave their name to Russia. Fun fact, this group also effectively began the Russian Orthodox tradition. I am referring of course to the Kievian Rus, for whom Russia was named, but who were basically to the Russians what the Normans were to the French....
- memracom 13y ago
  Belgium was split along historical lines but they talked over their differences and found common ground. The result of that was the beginning of the European Union which is why Brussels, Belgium is the EU capital today. So why can't the Ukrainians solve their problems the EU way?
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    Because being split between France and the Netherlands is a conflict of slightly different magnitude than being split between Russia and Europe. And I don't think that if you talk with Belgians many will agree that their model is in any way, shape or form to be used as a model for other countries.
  - louhike 13y ago
ckoepp 13y ago
Another side of the medal is, that this very government was elected freely and a lot of Ukrainian people are still supporting it, especially in the East of the country. Don't get me wrong, the government is far from being a good one and there surly are reasons to demonstrate. But it's elected and the OSCE said it was a fair election overall [1]. Well, in the end I must agree to Aoyagi: this is one side of a complex situation and although it is undoubtedly touching, it's not the whole truth behind the current situation. [1] http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/110818 http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/110818
daliusd 13y ago
It is YouTube video to raise some emotions not article from The Economist.
memracom 13y ago
Over the last couple of months there is photo evidence of protestors with pistols and sniper rifles. Not to mention the bullets removed from wounded police officers. And who is to say that the gunshot victims were not shot by rivals in the protest camp? Lots of rhetoric and innuendo but very little actual proof beyond the individual incidents that you would find in the USA, Canada or any EU country. When was the last time that police in your country beat up a suspect?
- iamwithnail 13y ago
  Got any evidence or links for any of that? You get that these are ordinary people, grandmothers as well as students? That these people are protesting having their country stolen AGAIN, by the same people as in 2005 when the Orange Revolution swept the country?
- Aoyagi 13y ago
  The pistols I've seen were airsoft pistols and the rifles seemed like BB guns or also airsoft guns. Can't verify, of course.
gldalmaso 13y ago
The same phenomena happened in Brazil last year. Right around the climax of the protests, suddenly a couple of too well produced (studio grade) english speaking videos were released aimed at "enlightening" outsiders. The message was also very selective and devoid of content or context. So take it with a grain of salt, since it seems unclear sponsors are learning to manipulate these kinds of protests into their own agendas. With some measure of success I would also add.

by Aoyagi 13y ago

daliusd 13y ago

Not everyone is Gandhi or Dalai Lama.

spingsprong 13y ago
If you look into it, not even Gandhi or the Dalai Lama is Gandhi or the Dalai Lama.
kamaal 13y ago
It is difficult to see how Gandhi's methods could be applied in a country where opponents of the regime disappear in the middle of the night and are never heard of again. Without a free press and the right of assembly, it is impossible not merely to appeal to outside opinion, but to bring a mass movement into being, or even to make your intentions known to your adversary. -- George Orwell There are places on earth where mere non-violent non co-operation just can't work. Basically because no one knows what you are doing, why you are doing and what your actual story is. If the opponent force is simply too overwhelming, powerful and has too much sway. Non violent non co operation doesn't help much.
- btilly 13y ago
  When I was growing up, one of the standard places that used to be cited for this line of reasoning was the Eastern Block. And certainly looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring there was evidence that peaceful protest wouldn't work. But what happened? Oh right. Peaceful protest brought down the Soviet block.
  - daliusd 13y ago
    I'm from Eastern Europe. I'm still not sure if we got extremely lucky (e.g. economical situation of Soviet Union being in very bad condition, US getting technological breakthrough with personal computers) or "peaceful" part actually worked out.
    - btilly 13y ago
      The theory I've heard which makes the most sense is that the CIA and Catholic Church had an alliance of convenience. The CIA provided resources (including training materials), the Church had a network to distribute them where they were needed. They did a trial run with Solidarity in Poland (not coincidentally the home country of the pope at the time) and then rolled it out on a larger scale after that succeeded.
  - sgift 13y ago
    What brought down the Soviet Block in the end was Mikhail Gorbachev deciding that there's enough blood on soviet hands and that they won't react the same way they did in the Prague Spring. He could have decided otherwise, he didn't. Shall the protesters hope the same will happen now? Didn't work so far.
  - kamaal 13y ago
    I'm a little young, so I don't have as much perspective of the recent history as you do. But every instance of non-violent non-co operation(Lets call it with the name Gandhi gave to it - ahimsa/satyagraha) works only because of the opponents get weak after a point of time. Indian Independence movement worked because in the course of WW2 the British lost the gumption they had earlier to control a nation as big as India. They were running out of resources, ideas and means to stay in India anymore. Gandhi's movement gave British too much bad across the world. Plus WW2 and WW1 had really taken a toll on the British. So it was a mixture of all these things + Gandhi's movement that make ahims/satyagraha work. I guess its the same with USSR too? Didn't this whole cold war thing come too heavy on the Soviets? The way I understand they were in deep financial crisis and were facing an imminent defeat in Afghanistan.

mtrimpe 13y ago

The EU was ready to have Ukraine go through another one of their lengthy entry processes where over a period of years requirements are progressively put in place to enable joining the EU. The current protests erupted when one of the first steps along that path was openly scuttled by Russia applying a huge amount of financial leverage. It is true that only half of Ukraine wants to join the west, but it's also clear that this is a clash between Russian interests and that of the European-minded population in Ukraine; not with EU/US in any significant way. There is a lot of schadenfreude going on of course because it's a huge blemish on Sochi as Putin's PR offensive and Western media are eager to rub it in as much as they can. Ironically enough, according to rumours, this all started because Putin ordered Ukraine's president to 'fix this' before the Olympics started and the unsuccessful police crackdown started the current chain of escalations.

x0054 13y ago
It is NOT true that ONLY half of the population want's to join EU or at least get rid of Putin's influence. Majority of Ukraine wants this!
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  From what I've understood half geographically (which is indeed the majority of the population) wants to actually join the EU and the other half mostly just wants the corruption to stop. Is that not correct?
  - x0054 13y ago
    I found the ethnic chart here fairly accurate http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09/this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09... (I did not read the article, just looked at the charts, which look to be in agreement with my personal experience). I would say that about 20% of the very east part of the country is largely pro Russia, as well as most of Crimea. But even the pro-Russia people don't necessarily think Ukraine should join Russia, almost everyone want's the corruption to stop, as you have pointed out. And I have yet to find a single Ukrainian, Russian speaking or not, who would have anything good to say about Putin. Of course, in most parts of Russia, outside Moscow, you will rarely find anyone who doesn't outright hate that bustard. I think most people want both Yanukovych and Putin out of their country. So maybe you are right, not every one is pro-EU, but most I would say are unti-Putin.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rds2000 13y ago

I think sometimes something as petty as wanting an ego-trip motivates this post, more so than really caring about disadvantaged people. I feel everyone gets a temporary jolt of validation from being voted up. However, it should be in exchanged for adding value (being insightful, interesting, useful, funny).

sbank 13y ago

> But she won't say that it's with rubber slugs or that the protesters are throwing molotovs and shooting fireworks (which can deal nasty damage). Rocks are implied, I think. Well, the protesters can't exactly afford highly sophisticated weapons made to inflict pain but not (too much) damage. They don't have the luxury of spending tax money on expensive equipment. The only reason there are rubber bullets is because they probably don't find it in their self-interest to use something more heavy at the current time. The government can slaughter its own people in a matter of hours if they want to, and face no resistance from some pathetic molotov cocktails. Maybe the video is one-sided (I haven't seen it yet), but comparing the two sides in the way you do does not make any sense to me.

insuffi 13y ago
The keyword in your post is protesters. Using molotov cocktails, rocks and fireworks makes it a riot. Also, I think it'd be useful to think about how western countries would handle this kind of "protest".

nhaehnle 13y ago

Thank you for that. As a European, I would add that you really need to be aware that the country seems to be split along historical lines: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24/this-is-the-one-map-you-need-to-understand-ukraines-crisis/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24... It seems that Kiev, the capital, happens to be in a region that is dominated by Ukrainian-speaking people, who feel closer to (Western/Central) Europe than to Russia. Therefore, a lot of protests are happening in the capital, which makes it easy for the media to paint a picture of an entire country with a pro-European bent in revolt against its pro-Russian government. That narrative conveniently ignores the huge pro-Russian part of the country. Things would play out very differently if Kiev were in the pro-Russian part of the Ukraine.

einhverfr 13y ago
Fun fact: Kiev was settled by a group that, although they were linguistically part of Northern rather than Eastern Europe, gave their name to Russia. Fun fact, this group also effectively began the Russian Orthodox tradition. I am referring of course to the Kievian Rus, for whom Russia was named, but who were basically to the Russians what the Normans were to the French....
memracom 13y ago
Belgium was split along historical lines but they talked over their differences and found common ground. The result of that was the beginning of the European Union which is why Brussels, Belgium is the EU capital today. So why can't the Ukrainians solve their problems the EU way?
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  Because being split between France and the Netherlands is a conflict of slightly different magnitude than being split between Russia and Europe. And I don't think that if you talk with Belgians many will agree that their model is in any way, shape or form to be used as a model for other countries.
- louhike 13y ago

ckoepp 13y ago

Another side of the medal is, that this very government was elected freely and a lot of Ukrainian people are still supporting it, especially in the East of the country. Don't get me wrong, the government is far from being a good one and there surly are reasons to demonstrate. But it's elected and the OSCE said it was a fair election overall [1]. Well, in the end I must agree to Aoyagi: this is one side of a complex situation and although it is undoubtedly touching, it's not the whole truth behind the current situation. [1] http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/110818 http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/110818

daliusd 13y ago

It is YouTube video to raise some emotions not article from The Economist.

memracom 13y ago

Over the last couple of months there is photo evidence of protestors with pistols and sniper rifles. Not to mention the bullets removed from wounded police officers. And who is to say that the gunshot victims were not shot by rivals in the protest camp? Lots of rhetoric and innuendo but very little actual proof beyond the individual incidents that you would find in the USA, Canada or any EU country. When was the last time that police in your country beat up a suspect?

iamwithnail 13y ago
Got any evidence or links for any of that? You get that these are ordinary people, grandmothers as well as students? That these people are protesting having their country stolen AGAIN, by the same people as in 2005 when the Orange Revolution swept the country?
Aoyagi 13y ago
The pistols I've seen were airsoft pistols and the rifles seemed like BB guns or also airsoft guns. Can't verify, of course.

gldalmaso 13y ago

The same phenomena happened in Brazil last year. Right around the climax of the protests, suddenly a couple of too well produced (studio grade) english speaking videos were released aimed at "enlightening" outsiders. The message was also very selective and devoid of content or context. So take it with a grain of salt, since it seems unclear sponsors are learning to manipulate these kinds of protests into their own agendas. With some measure of success I would also add.