6 ms·

Agree 100%. In my anecdotal experience, companies put far too much emphasis on finding unicorns that can solve problems on a whiteboard than they do on finding

by nhangen 13y ago

Agree 100%. In my anecdotal experience, companies put far too much emphasis on finding unicorns that can solve problems on a whiteboard than they do on finding above-average developers that have a strong work ethic, can learn fast, and have shipped something. As it stands, it seems the only people these companies hire are notable SV personalities, or people that excel at the formal interview format. As a result, they are missing out on a lot of good talent. Don't even get me started on working remote.

Matt_Mickiewicz 13y ago
You're absolutely right. Remote is a non-starter for 99% of start-ups... and a lot of companies that are selling pants online are searching for PhD-level engineering talent to run their shopping cart.
- mountaineer 13y ago
  Appreciate you're insight here, if anyone knows first hand, I'd imagine it'd be you with your experience on developerauction.
- strangetimes 13y ago
  I've noticed this, too, and been baffled by it. My working explanation is that people tend to hire clones of themselves. If the people making the hiring decisions in that online pants company have PhDs, they'll believe they need PhDs to work on that shopping cart.
  - danielweber 13y ago
    > people tend to hire clones of themselves Winner winner, chicken dinner. Ask a company that is hiring "is X important?", where X is one of {open-source coding, algorithm design, Ivy league degree, master's degree, MIT degree, Facebook alum, Google alum, presence in Silicon Valley, under 25 years old, over 25 years old, has a github, has a blog}, and you will get a "yes" for each X that the founder has.
- joshwa 13y ago
  As someone hiring at a pants-selling company, I'd settle for somebody who can recognize a many-to-many relationship. Our salaries aren't that uncompetitive, either. I think it's just that pants are un-sexy. At the very least I'm trying to sex things up a bit by moving us to a semi-modern stack so we match the desires of the more ambitious talent in the marketplace...
  - iron_ball 13y ago
    And as for remote work?
  - textminer 13y ago
    Is this a disco-pants selling company? That's pretty sexy.
  - joshwa 13y ago
    note: before my inbox overflows with resumes, you still need to have j2ee experience. (As much as I'd prefer to hire bright people who can learn on-the-job (a category from which I emerged), our current delivery schedule means we don't have the bandwidth. The reasons behind this are beyond the scope of this comment :( )
    - hmsimha 13y ago
      Ah, the ole sets-out-to-demonstrate-that-there-is-truly-a-shortage, demonstrates-that-the-shortage-indeed-lies-in-the-number-of-entry-level-jobs.
    - mgkimsal 13y ago
      But... that seems a bit of a wrong approach. If it takes you another 6 weeks to fill the role, that's 6 weeks someone could have been "learning on the job", no? And there's always a ramp up period - you're making an assumption that the person coming in without X years experience in tech Y will by definition not be able to learn fast enough on the job to be productive enough to hit target Z. But by not filling that role, you're definitely not hitting target Z. I do also get that there's time that's spent in onboarding any new hire, but that's possibly equivalent to spending more time hiring no? I understand your main point, but I just think many companies hold fast to that position far too long, when the alternatives might be better than they think.
- karmelapple 13y ago
  The startup I co-founded is exclusively remote, with almost everyone in a different USA state. I've found a lot of the talent in the area we're looking for (Minnesota) find remote to be either a new idea (I've done just a little remote before), and perhaps a somewhat strange concept (many are not sure if they could do it all day long). Is there any good strategy to finding remote workers in a specific geographic location? Yes, that's kind of antithetical to remote working, but the state offers tax advantages to employing people from the state... and looking through the entire state of Minnesota should find someone who's fine working from a home office... right? Or do those types of people really primarily live in the SV area?
  - prathammittal 13y ago
    Not exactly what you are looking for but might be something interesting for you to check out: venturepact.com
Consultant32452 13y ago
I can't speak to the Valley or any other "top tier" places but I live in a 2nd tier technology city, Orlando. We are the simulation capital of the world, two full sized Lockheed Martin campuses, really any defense contractor name you can think of, some household brand video game companies, etc. Lots of action going on here. The unemployment rate for developers is under 2%. This means that not only do "above-average" developers have jobs, lots of really awful developers also have jobs. It's INCREDIBLY difficult to find talent with under 3-4% unemployment.
- vonmoltke 13y ago
  Don't tempt me like that. I'm homesick, but doubt I could sell the wife on Florida. :P
  - Consultant32452 13y ago
    I wonder if anyone in NY, SF, or any other 1st tier developer city can comment on the local unemployment rate for either software devs or IT in general. Here in Orlando/Tampa it's been around 2% for YEARS.
    - tracker1 13y ago
      I don't know how First Tier Phoenix is... it's mostly business process development here, a lot of banking, and quite a bit of other financial process development, and business management dev. We've been really low on unemployment for a number of years... the cost of living compared to dev wages (usually >= 80% of NYC/SF wages) is really great, that I would be hard pressed to consider moving to SF, Seattle or NYC. That said, it's a bit hard to find talent, but then I don't do it for a living... Also, I don't think the business people doing HR really "get" the mindset of a software developer in terms of actually recruiting.
- gkuan 13y ago
  How do you local unemployment data on developers? Are there any agencies that collect this data?
balls187 13y ago
Do you want to work with above average people, or do you want to work with great people?
- nhangen 13y ago
  It depends on how you measure great. You can be great as an above average developer, and you can be less than great as an excellent developer. I'd prefer to measure the complete package.
  - balls187 13y ago
    Fair point, and I agree. You need to measure the whole package.
- watwut 13y ago
  I want to work with people who are good match for a job. Most projects are not that difficult and uber-tech as founders like to think. Reliable average programmer that generates maintainable code in predictable speed might end up as useful and less annoying then bored genius. That was annoying thing company I knew did. Candidates were selected for their love of algorithms and detailed knowledge of frameworks etc. Anyone else was labeled "weak". It just so happened that the work required only surface knowledge. What they really needed was someone willing to do "boring" programming work responsibly and without supervision. So, hired geniuses were running away faster then you can say bye and those who stayed half assed work.
  - mattgreenrocks 13y ago
    > Most projects are not that difficult and uber-tech as founders like to think This requires a certain amount of intellectual humility; as founders would have to acknowledge that it is likely they are not changing the world (they're coloring by number using last week's cool framework), and they don't need the best engineers.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
  I'd rather not work with above-average people who think they're great.
mountaineer 13y ago
I could upvote this all day. I was rejected by a company that posts about their need for developers constantly, and it irritates me to no end. I provided a big batch of sample code privately, on Github, demonstrated the apps I've shipped, showed great enthusiasm in their product (I was a happy user long before I attempted to join the company). They see all of this before interviews and then they reject me because of how I named a variable in a 15 minute pair-programming exercise and said I should read Code Complete (I have mostly), promptly ignoring the thousands of lines of code they could inspect. I'm sure there was more to it, but still, left a bad taste in my mouth.
- eru 13y ago
  Just be glad you didn't end up working with these people.
- robryan 13y ago
  That is pretty insulting, especially given the subjective nature of naming things. Also code complete is ancient, sure much of it is still relevant, I don't think it is the be all and end all though for the modern programmer.
- mattgreenrocks 13y ago
  Many interviewers simply can't get past the power-trip of interviews. This turns the interview into an awkward tightrope of appearing smart/dependable without being intimidating.
  - vonmoltke 13y ago
    I find myself getting nervous on both sides of the table.

by nhangen 13y ago

Matt_Mickiewicz 13y ago

You're absolutely right. Remote is a non-starter for 99% of start-ups... and a lot of companies that are selling pants online are searching for PhD-level engineering talent to run their shopping cart.

mountaineer 13y ago
Appreciate you're insight here, if anyone knows first hand, I'd imagine it'd be you with your experience on developerauction.
strangetimes 13y ago
I've noticed this, too, and been baffled by it. My working explanation is that people tend to hire clones of themselves. If the people making the hiring decisions in that online pants company have PhDs, they'll believe they need PhDs to work on that shopping cart.
- danielweber 13y ago
  > people tend to hire clones of themselves Winner winner, chicken dinner. Ask a company that is hiring "is X important?", where X is one of {open-source coding, algorithm design, Ivy league degree, master's degree, MIT degree, Facebook alum, Google alum, presence in Silicon Valley, under 25 years old, over 25 years old, has a github, has a blog}, and you will get a "yes" for each X that the founder has.
joshwa 13y ago
As someone hiring at a pants-selling company, I'd settle for somebody who can recognize a many-to-many relationship. Our salaries aren't that uncompetitive, either. I think it's just that pants are un-sexy. At the very least I'm trying to sex things up a bit by moving us to a semi-modern stack so we match the desires of the more ambitious talent in the marketplace...
- iron_ball 13y ago
  And as for remote work?
- textminer 13y ago
  Is this a disco-pants selling company? That's pretty sexy.
- joshwa 13y ago
  note: before my inbox overflows with resumes, you still need to have j2ee experience. (As much as I'd prefer to hire bright people who can learn on-the-job (a category from which I emerged), our current delivery schedule means we don't have the bandwidth. The reasons behind this are beyond the scope of this comment :( )
  - hmsimha 13y ago
    Ah, the ole sets-out-to-demonstrate-that-there-is-truly-a-shortage, demonstrates-that-the-shortage-indeed-lies-in-the-number-of-entry-level-jobs.
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    But... that seems a bit of a wrong approach. If it takes you another 6 weeks to fill the role, that's 6 weeks someone could have been "learning on the job", no? And there's always a ramp up period - you're making an assumption that the person coming in without X years experience in tech Y will by definition not be able to learn fast enough on the job to be productive enough to hit target Z. But by not filling that role, you're definitely not hitting target Z. I do also get that there's time that's spent in onboarding any new hire, but that's possibly equivalent to spending more time hiring no? I understand your main point, but I just think many companies hold fast to that position far too long, when the alternatives might be better than they think.
karmelapple 13y ago
The startup I co-founded is exclusively remote, with almost everyone in a different USA state. I've found a lot of the talent in the area we're looking for (Minnesota) find remote to be either a new idea (I've done just a little remote before), and perhaps a somewhat strange concept (many are not sure if they could do it all day long). Is there any good strategy to finding remote workers in a specific geographic location? Yes, that's kind of antithetical to remote working, but the state offers tax advantages to employing people from the state... and looking through the entire state of Minnesota should find someone who's fine working from a home office... right? Or do those types of people really primarily live in the SV area?
- prathammittal 13y ago
  Not exactly what you are looking for but might be something interesting for you to check out: venturepact.com

Consultant32452 13y ago

I can't speak to the Valley or any other "top tier" places but I live in a 2nd tier technology city, Orlando. We are the simulation capital of the world, two full sized Lockheed Martin campuses, really any defense contractor name you can think of, some household brand video game companies, etc. Lots of action going on here. The unemployment rate for developers is under 2%. This means that not only do "above-average" developers have jobs, lots of really awful developers also have jobs. It's INCREDIBLY difficult to find talent with under 3-4% unemployment.

vonmoltke 13y ago
Don't tempt me like that. I'm homesick, but doubt I could sell the wife on Florida. :P
- Consultant32452 13y ago
  I wonder if anyone in NY, SF, or any other 1st tier developer city can comment on the local unemployment rate for either software devs or IT in general. Here in Orlando/Tampa it's been around 2% for YEARS.
  - tracker1 13y ago
    I don't know how First Tier Phoenix is... it's mostly business process development here, a lot of banking, and quite a bit of other financial process development, and business management dev. We've been really low on unemployment for a number of years... the cost of living compared to dev wages (usually >= 80% of NYC/SF wages) is really great, that I would be hard pressed to consider moving to SF, Seattle or NYC. That said, it's a bit hard to find talent, but then I don't do it for a living... Also, I don't think the business people doing HR really "get" the mindset of a software developer in terms of actually recruiting.
gkuan 13y ago
How do you local unemployment data on developers? Are there any agencies that collect this data?

balls187 13y ago

Do you want to work with above average people, or do you want to work with great people?

nhangen 13y ago
It depends on how you measure great. You can be great as an above average developer, and you can be less than great as an excellent developer. I'd prefer to measure the complete package.
- balls187 13y ago
  Fair point, and I agree. You need to measure the whole package.
watwut 13y ago
I want to work with people who are good match for a job. Most projects are not that difficult and uber-tech as founders like to think. Reliable average programmer that generates maintainable code in predictable speed might end up as useful and less annoying then bored genius. That was annoying thing company I knew did. Candidates were selected for their love of algorithms and detailed knowledge of frameworks etc. Anyone else was labeled "weak". It just so happened that the work required only surface knowledge. What they really needed was someone willing to do "boring" programming work responsibly and without supervision. So, hired geniuses were running away faster then you can say bye and those who stayed half assed work.
- mattgreenrocks 13y ago
  > Most projects are not that difficult and uber-tech as founders like to think This requires a certain amount of intellectual humility; as founders would have to acknowledge that it is likely they are not changing the world (they're coloring by number using last week's cool framework), and they don't need the best engineers.
GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
I'd rather not work with above-average people who think they're great.

mountaineer 13y ago

I could upvote this all day. I was rejected by a company that posts about their need for developers constantly, and it irritates me to no end. I provided a big batch of sample code privately, on Github, demonstrated the apps I've shipped, showed great enthusiasm in their product (I was a happy user long before I attempted to join the company). They see all of this before interviews and then they reject me because of how I named a variable in a 15 minute pair-programming exercise and said I should read Code Complete (I have mostly), promptly ignoring the thousands of lines of code they could inspect. I'm sure there was more to it, but still, left a bad taste in my mouth.

eru 13y ago
Just be glad you didn't end up working with these people.
robryan 13y ago
That is pretty insulting, especially given the subjective nature of naming things. Also code complete is ancient, sure much of it is still relevant, I don't think it is the be all and end all though for the modern programmer.
mattgreenrocks 13y ago
Many interviewers simply can't get past the power-trip of interviews. This turns the interview into an awkward tightrope of appearing smart/dependable without being intimidating.
- vonmoltke 13y ago
  I find myself getting nervous on both sides of the table.