4 ms·

This is precisely why the current "hacker culture" scares the hell out of me. The vast majority of new programmers don't understand the basics of software desig

This is precisely why the current "hacker culture" scares the hell out of me. The vast majority of new programmers don't understand the basics of software design; we are entering an era where software is written by whoever will work for the lowest wage.

jrockway 13y ago
I don't think that's necessarily true: software is as reliable as it needs to be. Yup, it's annoying when your favorite blog leaks your password. But since there are no legal consequences for doing that, why should they bother trying to prevent it?
- joosters 13y ago
  Exactly the attitude that would be great to stamp out: "It won't hurt/cost me, so why should I care?" It's obviously on a far different scale from software causing deaths, I'm not trying to make comparisons between the two. But the motivation of the software developer needs to be a little more moral than just 'will I be in trouble with the law?'
  - jrockway 13y ago
    What I'm saying is that if you're the kind of person that cares, you'll find a higher-paying job using that knowledge for something more important. The kind of programmer that stores passwords in plaintext in a publicly-accessible database is not one that says, "I'm going to do this because it's faster." He or she doesn't even know that that could be a problem. Similarly, those hiring such a person are ignorant of what experience costs, and so they get what they paid for, even if they didn't make the conscious decision to make an insecure website. (You don't see Google or Microsoft or Apple posting ads on freelancer sites for $5/hour jobs. They know the results they want cost more than that.)
    - mannykannot 13y ago
      "What I'm saying is that if you're the kind of person that cares, you'll find a higher-paying job using that knowledge for something more important." It is not just a matter of developers' professional and personal integrity. We have to live with the consequences of bad software produced through the employment of amateurs, even if we, personally, care about doing a good job.
FLUX-YOU 13y ago
>The vast majority of new programmers don't understand the basics of software design; we are entering an era where software is written by whoever will work for the lowest wage. It is really easy to pick up languages and libraries with so much information being freely shared. IMHO that usually comes with less regard for proper rigor in exchange for fun and keeping interest. Although, I think the vast majority of new programmers aren't working on things like Therac-25 machines, but instead on Flappy Bird, JavaScript library #749237, and Bob's Website. You don't really need much software design knowledge to push products at that level.
Perdition 13y ago
You say that like it is at all a recent phenomenon. That is the way it has been since computers went commercial.
kohanz 13y ago
This is why we have regulatory agencies like the FDA and development standards like ISO 13485 and IEC 62304. As someone who has worked for most of their career in medical device development, I can tell you that anyone who is a "hacker" rather than a software developer/engineer would not last a day in such a regulated workplace.
- rjzzleep 13y ago
  you and your op are so very wrong. throwing together a website doesn't make you a hacker. allow me to rephrase. using some tools a person built for you to throw together a website, and you using them together in exactly the manner that they were meant to be used makes you a user/consumer not a hacker. quite a few of actual hackers i saw withered in university because they did what grad students did in their high school days at home. i can tell you a lot of things that you use in production today even in your field is the result of a lot of these hackers you so disparage. edit: rephrased last paragraph
  - kohanz 13y ago
    I'm not sure why you are being so defensive. I never condemned (the word you're looking for, rather than "condoned") hackers. People who like to learn on-the-fly, tinker, make things, have an important place in this world, including software. I would never deny that. Also note that the roles of "hacker" and "software developer/engineer" need not be mutually exclusive. I was pointing out to the parent comment that someone who is not reasonably versed in proper software design, process, and documentation cannot just hack away at products such as Therac-25 anymore. At least, it would be much more difficult for them to do so and bring it to market successfully, due to all the regulatory red-tape.
    - rjzzleep 13y ago
      nope, not condemn, but maybe reproach or disparage are better words for your attitude. why don't you rephrase your original text? had you said "these new programming hipsters" i wouldn't have argued with you. the truth is that everyone nowadays can program, which is why people get so defensive about that "discipline" but you guys completely misunderstand the meaning behind the word hacking. so i had to correct it.

jrockway 13y ago

I don't think that's necessarily true: software is as reliable as it needs to be. Yup, it's annoying when your favorite blog leaks your password. But since there are no legal consequences for doing that, why should they bother trying to prevent it?

joosters 13y ago
Exactly the attitude that would be great to stamp out: "It won't hurt/cost me, so why should I care?" It's obviously on a far different scale from software causing deaths, I'm not trying to make comparisons between the two. But the motivation of the software developer needs to be a little more moral than just 'will I be in trouble with the law?'
- jrockway 13y ago
  What I'm saying is that if you're the kind of person that cares, you'll find a higher-paying job using that knowledge for something more important. The kind of programmer that stores passwords in plaintext in a publicly-accessible database is not one that says, "I'm going to do this because it's faster." He or she doesn't even know that that could be a problem. Similarly, those hiring such a person are ignorant of what experience costs, and so they get what they paid for, even if they didn't make the conscious decision to make an insecure website. (You don't see Google or Microsoft or Apple posting ads on freelancer sites for $5/hour jobs. They know the results they want cost more than that.)
  - mannykannot 13y ago
    "What I'm saying is that if you're the kind of person that cares, you'll find a higher-paying job using that knowledge for something more important." It is not just a matter of developers' professional and personal integrity. We have to live with the consequences of bad software produced through the employment of amateurs, even if we, personally, care about doing a good job.

FLUX-YOU 13y ago

>The vast majority of new programmers don't understand the basics of software design; we are entering an era where software is written by whoever will work for the lowest wage. It is really easy to pick up languages and libraries with so much information being freely shared. IMHO that usually comes with less regard for proper rigor in exchange for fun and keeping interest. Although, I think the vast majority of new programmers aren't working on things like Therac-25 machines, but instead on Flappy Bird, JavaScript library #749237, and Bob's Website. You don't really need much software design knowledge to push products at that level.

Perdition 13y ago

You say that like it is at all a recent phenomenon. That is the way it has been since computers went commercial.

kohanz 13y ago

This is why we have regulatory agencies like the FDA and development standards like ISO 13485 and IEC 62304. As someone who has worked for most of their career in medical device development, I can tell you that anyone who is a "hacker" rather than a software developer/engineer would not last a day in such a regulated workplace.

rjzzleep 13y ago
you and your op are so very wrong. throwing together a website doesn't make you a hacker. allow me to rephrase. using some tools a person built for you to throw together a website, and you using them together in exactly the manner that they were meant to be used makes you a user/consumer not a hacker. quite a few of actual hackers i saw withered in university because they did what grad students did in their high school days at home. i can tell you a lot of things that you use in production today even in your field is the result of a lot of these hackers you so disparage. edit: rephrased last paragraph
- kohanz 13y ago
  I'm not sure why you are being so defensive. I never condemned (the word you're looking for, rather than "condoned") hackers. People who like to learn on-the-fly, tinker, make things, have an important place in this world, including software. I would never deny that. Also note that the roles of "hacker" and "software developer/engineer" need not be mutually exclusive. I was pointing out to the parent comment that someone who is not reasonably versed in proper software design, process, and documentation cannot just hack away at products such as Therac-25 anymore. At least, it would be much more difficult for them to do so and bring it to market successfully, due to all the regulatory red-tape.
  - rjzzleep 13y ago
    nope, not condemn, but maybe reproach or disparage are better words for your attitude. why don't you rephrase your original text? had you said "these new programming hipsters" i wouldn't have argued with you. the truth is that everyone nowadays can program, which is why people get so defensive about that "discipline" but you guys completely misunderstand the meaning behind the word hacking. so i had to correct it.